mulro767 Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Heading to Wilmar, MN on Wednesday for my first owner assisted annual. Any other non-A&P types out there do one at a MSC? What should I expect? I'm really hoping to save some money and learn a bunch more about my J. I was really impressed with the guys there last year but holy big bill!!!$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I've never done one at an MSC and I'm not sure what Willmar will let you do but I have done 2 owner assisted annuals so far and I have learned a lot and saved a lot. I do all of the grunt work that I can legally do anyway I.e remove covers (on a Mooney this can take 4 hours), interior, cowl lubricate all points, change the oil and filter, clean the plane inside and out, apply corrosion x etc. then I work with the mechanic on any squawks to get them fixed. Depending on how things are going sometimes I fix them under supervision or I let her fix them. Ultimately it is a balance you need to establish between you and your mechanic. You need to let them do enough so that they can earn a living and be there for you when you need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I used to do them for the first five years I owned C-FSWR. Now I don't have time. They are fun and you really learn a lot, especially if your mechanic is patient and willing to teach you. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Owner-assisted annuals are a great way to learn about your plane, how it's made, how it's put together and what shape everything is in. You will also gain appreciation for the work your A&P does for you, and how "snug" everything is in this plane to reduce frontal area and drag. Do you have small hands and thin arms? With any luck, you won't need to lay on your back by the rudder pedals and reach up under the panel, but removing the belly and wing panels always makes my shoulders tired--I'm just not used to working with my hands above my head. The two best things I've bought: a ratcheting screwdriver, and a new ergonomic creeper [$18 at Harbor Freight, molded to body shape instead of the old straight wooden one] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Heading to Wilmar, MN on Wednesday for my first owner assisted annual. Any other non-A&P types out there do one at a MSC? What should I expect? I'm really hoping to save some money and learn a bunch more about my J. You WILL learn a lot about your plane, and depending on how many questions you ask if shouldn't cost you too much more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeckford Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Good choice with Willmar. I was just there Saturday picking up our plane after the tanks were resealed by WeepNoMore. Paul Beck did an excellent job. Willmar MSC seemed be a great group. They maintain an 83J with over 14,000 hours. That says something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OR75 Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I will be curious to see what your saving will be with an owner's assist at an MSC. A recommendation: take a digital camera with you and take pictures while the panels are open. A good way of keeping track of parts etc ... have fun opening and putting back panels, especially the belly !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrwilson Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I usually do owner-assisted, at both MSC's and non-MSC's. Like JimR said, it only reduces the bill by about $200, but it is definently worth it. Plus, I take the opportunity to get in there and clean things, apply corrosion X, tighten this or that and ask a lot of questions and probably get more for the money. It takes longer and requires more patience from the mechanics, but they mention it makes better owners who complain less about the final bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I did 23 owner assisted annuals before my IA told me to go get my license, he gave me my a letter of recomendation and a month later I'm an A&P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I did my annual owner assisted at LASAR and it really didn't save me much money. What it did save me is time. My plane was in and out of there much faster than if I was not present I'm sure of that. In addition, as others have already pointed out, I learned a lot and know my Mooney even better now. I really recommend it. If you have your own basic tool set, bring it. It will speed things up and they will appreciate it. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Owner assist will make you one with your machine. You get to know the people you are working with. You will learn how mechanics really work. It's all good if you have the time. You'll know every wart on your machine As far as MSCs go... I got my last two annuals there, but did not attend in person. Maybe next time. -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulro767 Posted November 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks for the advice and stories. I flew over yesterday morning and had it inside the hangar doors at 9 a.m. I left today at 1 p.m. It really did save a lot of time and I hope at least a few bucks saved. But well worth the experience as I learned a lot. I became one with the hangar floor! I was on my back most of the time and that one piece belly is looking better and better each day. Luckily, they had an electric screwdriver which was lovely. And I was able to experience the yo-yo pull on the emergency landing gear. Piece of cake! I highly recommend Willmar Air Service. They are a trustworthy, professional, and friendly group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 IA-assist annual. 55 line items and 120 man-hours of work in ten days. Landing gear actuator came out, serviced, nose gear tracking washer, gear re-rigged, gear doors rigged, brakes, placards, missing plastic trim pieces, all interior plastic repaired, repainted and reinstalled, coax cables for COM1/2. It left the hangar on time, and we covered everything. This year, we are shooting for two days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Saving money was definitely not the driving force. Especially if you break something that a mechanic wouldn't... Also a good way to start planning some changes for next year... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTex Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 I know it isn't going to be a particularly popular position but, folks should seriously consider having at least every other annual performed by one of the leading MSC's that their main line of business is servicing Mooneys. Speaking from personal experience I purchased a plane that had it's annuals done as an owner assisted. When Don Maxwell performed the pre-buy I was blown away by the list of air worthy items he found for a plane that had an annual performed 2 months earlier. What I suspect is happening is that an owner has a buddy that is an AI and works with him to perform the annual. Then either the AI expects the owner to perform certain tasks and/or the AI looks the other way, items that should be flagged as Airworthy items gets either overlooked or ignored. The owner tells the AI that he knows his plane better than anyone else so items like rigging, bad gear discs, sagging engine mounts, etc. get overlooked because the owner is accustomed to the way the plane fly's. There's some very real benefits to owner assisted annuals. That said, there's also some serious benefits allowing a fresh set of eyes to look over the plane with an objective point of view with the knowledge of what is the "norm." The gear discs are a perfect example. The prior owner of my plane thought that the discs were in great shape. But when MSC AI taxied out, he came back stating it drove like a tank and he was almost too beat up to fly it by the time he got to the runway. My two cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freight Dog Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 I know it isn't going to be a particularly popular position but, folks should seriously consider having at least every other annual performed by one of the leading MSC's that their main line of business is servicing Mooneys. Speaking from personal experience I purchased a plane that had it's annuals done as an owner assisted. When Don Maxwell performed the pre-buy I was blown away by the list of air worthy items he found for a plane that had an annual performed 2 months earlier. What I suspect is happening is that an owner has a buddy that is an AI and works with him to perform the annual. Then either the AI expects the owner to perform certain tasks and/or the AI looks the other way, items that should be flagged as Airworthy items gets either overlooked or ignored. The owner tells the AI that he knows his plane better than anyone else so items like rigging, bad gear discs, sagging engine mounts, etc. get overlooked because the owner is accustomed to the way the plane fly's. There's some very real benefits to owner assisted annuals. That said, there's also some serious benefits allowing a fresh set of eyes to look over the plane with an objective point of view with the knowledge of what is the "norm." The gear discs are a perfect example. The prior owner of my plane thought that the discs were in great shape. But when MSC AI taxied out, he came back stating it drove like a tank and he was almost too beat up to fly it by the time he got to the runway. My two cents... I just had Don Maxwell do a prebuy for me on a '65 M20E, and man was I also blown away... Don found over 65 items of which over 45 were airworthiness items that would have to get addressed before he'd sign off on an annual. Talk about getting your money's worth in a prebuy... Just like yours, this plane lacked TLC and proper maintenance for a while, even though the annual was signed off just a few months ago. Now it's up to the seller... either he fixes all airworthiness items and addresses some important recommendations or takes the equivalent drop in price... or try to find another buyer. Pay now or pay later... maintenance isn't something to skip out on. At best, you'll get a rude awakening when you try to sell it, at worst it could cost you and/or your loved ones your lives! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 To be specific, the repairs are one thing, and the inspection is another. You could find 100 things wrong with 50 of them airworthiness items. The IA does the inspection and can sign off the aircraft "as is" and give a list of discrepancies to the owner. There is no requirement to repair anything for the annual inspection. However, it is not airworthy unless it conforms to it's type certificate and is in airworthy condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 I think owner assisted annuals is a great idea. You get to learn so much more of your airplanes construction and systems than reading about them. The word airworthy is very subjective and will vary greatly from one A&P to another. Given the fact that our maintenance manuals are very light on limits, it's hard to show a squawk that is truly an "airworthy" issue in black and white from our maintenace manuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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