If you were looking at a Mooney to buy how much..

[N6843N]

Value would you place on haveing the AD on the Hartzell props terminated by it having a (1) new hub or (2) differn't style prop, 3 blade or a Mac.

[GeorgePerry]

The value (or lack there of) I would put on a Mooney that requires the ECI, is the replacement costs for a new prop and hub.  When it's all said and done to get a replacement prop, it'll cost about $7-9K.

Personally I wouldn't have a hub that requires the ECI...I'd just fix the problem and be done with it.  To me if an owner hasn't already done this it's an indicator that they "skimp" on maintenance.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I wouldn't add any value for a 3 blade prop as many with 4 cyl engines are experiencing vibration with the 3 blade props...

[rob]

I dont think the ECI is a big deal (granted, I don't have to do it). I don't think that not having it is grounds for a 7k deduction, nor do I think that it's indicitive of an owner skimping on maintenance. Most likely, those that have it have not yet encountered a need to overhaul their prop.  It's just an inspection, not a big deal. If you check out the November MAPALog, Jimmy Garrison suggests that you subtract 1500 for the Hartzell that requires the ECI

[HRM]

Quote: N6843N

Value would you place on haveing the AD on the Hartzell props terminated by it having a (1) new hub or (2) differn't style prop, 3 blade or a Mac.

[RobertL]

Am inching towards my pre-buy on a 1966 20E - hopefully gets started next week. It has a three blader which I assume means no AD issue, but Parker above mentions the possibility of vibration - is there an RPM sweetspot (2500?) to address this? The manual has the long range setting at 1900 and 38% power for 8 hours bladder bursting endurance, hopefully the three blader can cope there as well. The seller claims it does improve ground clearance. 

[podair]

my M20F has a Hartzell 3 blade HC-C3YR-1RF. I believe the previous 2 blade had a limitation not to operate below 2350. On mine the only restriction is no continuous operation below 15inmap between 1950-2350rpm, otherwise the green arc is all the way from 500 to 2700rpm. When I bought it I did find some rpm settings were not as sweet so I had the prop balanced but the shop said it was pretty well balanced already. It seems particularly happy at 2500rpm, or 21-2200rpm, less so in between. So I tend to fly at 2500rpm , or 2200 for loafing around or slowing down on approaches.

I guess this could be airframe or even aircraft specific. I did some training on a M20F with a 2 blader and it did seem to be a bit smoother but much noisier at higher rpms. I have the old windshield with centre post. The 2 blade M20F was a later model with the old one piece windshield (not a retrofit).

 

 

[KSMooniac]

IIRC the metal 3-bladers STC'd for our vintage Mooneys are all the same diameter as the OEM 2-bladers, so you will not gain any ground clearance.  3-blade features are:  sexier ramp appeal, more weight/less useful load (and fwd CG), possible vibration issues, better t/o & climb, slower cruise.  Only improved t/o & climb are positives on that list, and not worth the extra weight and slower cruise for me. 

I would love to have an MT 3-blader, though, on my 201.  It is lighter than a metal 2-blader and runs smoother.

[Guest Anonymous]

There is one other thing not mentioned earlier for the Hartzell 3 blade.  It has a 2400 hour/6 year TBO compared to 2000/5 for the OEM Hartzell 2 blade and 1500/5 year for the McCauley .  The Q-tip upgraded 2 blades do go 6 years, but are still only 2000 hours.

[KSMooniac]

The extra 400 hours or 1 year is still not worth it since you have to haul around all that extra weight.    I don't know any Part 91 owner/operators that follow those schedules for props and just do it on-condition or when the engine is off.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: KSMooniac

The extra 400 hours or 1 year is still not worth it since you have to haul around all that extra weight.    I don't know any Part 91 owner/operators that follow those schedules for props and just do it on-condition or when the engine is off.

[KSMooniac]

I think the Top Prop is around $7-8k new, outright with spinner but I'm not exactly sure.  I've read of a lot of trouble with cracking spinners, so I hope they get it fully sorted if it isn't already solved.  With Hartzell there is always the risk of a dubious AD to make you buy more stuff from them in the future...that is why I can't get too excited about that prop.  Hopefully I'm wrong and they've finally figured out how to make a durable product.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: KSMooniac

I think the Top Prop is around $7-8k new, outright with spinner but I'm not exactly sure.  I've read of a lot of trouble with cracking spinners, so I hope they get it fully sorted if it isn't already solved.  With Hartzell there is always the risk of a dubious AD to make you buy more stuff from them in the future...that is why I can't get too excited about that prop.  Hopefully I'm wrong and they've finally figured out how to make a durable product.

[airkraft]

KS, we're pleased with the  two-blade blended airfoil Top Prop.  We gained a bit in cruise, can't comment on t/o or climb performance.  Our original "pointy" spinner did show signs of cracking early on.  Hartzell was very quick to supply and pay labor for installation of a replacement spinner that has, so far at 125 Hrs, been quite satisfactory.  I agree, though, that history may indicate a "precautionary" Hartzell S.B. or A.D. is not out of the question ...GK

[byrdflyr]

I own a 66 M20C with the AD hub. So far, getting it magnafluxed every year at annual costs me about $100. My A&P tells me that it is unlikely we will find a problem, and the prop can run the remaining 1500 hours TBO as these have done for many, many, years. I don't consider the AD to be a negative value factor, but a new 2-blade top prop conversion would boost value by several thousand bucks in my opinion.  There have only been one or two prop-hub incidents.

Check out the press-release:  

PIQUA, Ohio –July 23, 2007 – Hartzell Propeller Inc. announced today that it has received an STC to install a newly designed, two- bladed 74" diameter blended airfoil Top Prop performance conversion kit onto Mooney M20A-G and M20J models. Hartzell optimized the new blended airfoil design to deliver greater cruise performance at higher airspeeds. Flight tests with an M20F have confirmed an increase of 2-4 knots in normal cruise over the original Hartzell 2- bladed propeller while maintaining equivalent climb performance. The improvement in cruise was achieved at the expense of a slightly longer take-off roll that has been observed at about an extra 3%.

"Tests also confirmed that performance levels increased along with power settings and airspeed levels. So the higher the airspeed and the higher the power settings the greater the performance improvement that we observed in cruise levels," said Mike Trudeau, Director of Hartzell’s Top Prop Performance Conversion program.

Restrictive placards on the A-D, G and J aircraft have been removed entirely while the restriction on the E and F models has been reduced to simply no continuous operation above 24" of manifold between 2350 and 2550 RPM.

On all models of the aicraft, the repetitive inspections required by AD2006-18-15 have been eliminated.

The new Mooney Top Prop kit comes complete with the propeller, a highly-polished spinner, STC paperwork and the exclusive Hartzell Plus Three™ warranty, which delivers a full three years or 1000 hours of coverage, at a list price of $6,995.

For more information about the new Mooney kit or any other Top Prop performance conversion, visit the Top Prop section of the Hartzell Web site at www.hartzellprop.com, or call toll free (800) 942-7767 or (937) 778-5726. Fax your request to Hartzell at (937) 778-4215 or email topprop@hartzellprop.com.

With more than 14,000 kits sold, Hartzell Top Prop Propeller Conversions offer pilots one of the easiest and most economical methods for improving the value of their aircraft. 60 different Beech, Cessna, Commander, Diamond, Mooney, Piper, and SOCATA kits are currently available, making the Top Prop family the largest and most complete propeller conversion offering in the world.