Rght out of the gate? Seriously???

[Freddb34]

Day one of Mooney ownership:

Met the seller at the airport, got the keys, logbooks, and had my CFI with me to take the plane up for a few hours and get some good landing practice and a few hours working through the systems.  Sounds good right?  So, we top off the tanks at said airport, taxi out, run up, everything is golden.  We line up, push the throttles forward and start my first take off roll in MY Mooney.  Climb out, gear up, flaps up and turn crosswind.  Shut off the boost pump, landing light and turn down wind.  Roll back the MP to 2500, roll back RPM to 2500.  Turn downwind and BAM!  THE ENGINE QUITS!  Fortunately there's 2 4000' runways directly underneath us.  While I worked on troubleshooting and getting the gear down, the CFI did 3 S-turns to get us into position to land,  I made the radio calls (good CRM here) and when we were on about a mile final, he handed the controls back over to me (good training).  I set it down, rolled off the runway.  We sat there for a few minutes and tried to restart the plane.  Fired right back up.  We taxied to the ramp, did two more run ups with no issues at all.  We decided to have the AP's look at it and they could find nothing wrong.  There was nothing in the injectors, plugs, servo (the screen did have some particulate matter but no blockage), both fuel pumps were moving fuel equally from both tanks and to all injectors and compressions were all 73+ (cold). An inspection of the tank revealed a lot of floating stuff in the fuel.  Found out the seller had used this same airport to fuel up 5 days prior and he too had an engine fuel related issue on take off (fouled injector).  The AP drained the tanks completely and used clean fuel to slosh around and see if he could knock anything else loose. 

Question for the group:  is the likely culprit my fuel tanks (recently resealed) or does this FBO have some bad fuel?  I'm thinking it's the planes tanks and a good flushing will resolve the issue.  As always, happy to be in this group and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  Thanks!

[N201MKTurbo]

I suspect you had some water in the tanks.

[Freddb34]

23 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I suspect you had some water in the tanks.

But wouldn't that make it run rough and not just quit altogether?  Or does water affect a FI engine more than a carbed one? 

[Paul Thomas]

Were the tanks resealed or patched? If its a full reseal, who did the job? A fuel reseal should not have any particulate left over and the sealant should not be coming loose. On a patch job, risk increases depending on how it was done. Either way, I wouldn't think it would result in an immediate shut down but a gradual loss of power as some fuel should still be pushing through the system.

[Freddb34]

19 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

Were the tanks resealed or patched? If its a full reseal, who did the job? A fuel reseal should not have any particulate left over and the sealant should not be coming loose. On a patch job, risk increases depending on how it was done. Either way, I wouldn't think it would result in an immediate shut down but a gradual loss of power as some fuel should still be pushing through the system.

They were resealed (according to the seller, who himself had recently purchased it).  I want to go thru the logbooks much more closely and see what EXACTLY was done.  But yes, it was immediate and acute....the engine went from 2500RPM to 700RPM in about 2 seconds.  Then when we got on the ground, it chugged and surged between 600-800RPPM and then I shut it down.  About a minute later, it started right back up and appeared to run fine...and then the AP couldn't find anything wrong (except the small particles on the boroscope and in the fuel strainer).  And by the way, if we get this all straightened out, I'll be flying down to and staying at KPGD in a few weeks for the winter.  Let's try to sync up when I get there.  

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, Freddb34 said:

But wouldn't that make it run rough and not just quit altogether?  Or does water affect a FI engine more than a carbed one? 

If there's a big enough bubble of water it'll just quit (BTDT).     I had a similar experience and pulled the throttle back to idle once committed to land to prevent any surprises.   When I rolled off the end of the runway onto a taxiway the engine was idling (it had restarted on its own).

I'll suggest checking the fuel filters and screens, including the finger filter in the servo.    In my case it was also shortly after acquiring the airplane and I had multiple instances of power loss and clogged injectors.   The finger screen was full of rusty gunk, and I've no idea what it was or where it came from, but ultimately the problems were solved with a fuel servo overhaul.   I think it'd had water in it a lot (and dirt from being parked outside in dust storms).

You may be lucky and just got a bad batch of fuel, but if problems persist be sure to look further.

[Yetti]

You took off with the electric fuel pump on.   (This would be a nope in most Mooney's)   You turned the electric fuel pump off.   The engine quits.

Do a leak down test on the manual fuel pump.

On the ground.     Turn electric pump on.    Open Mixture.   count to 6 close mixture.   turn electric fuel pump off.    Watch Fuel pressure gauge.    Should stay up at pressure for at least a minute or longer. 

Clean the finger screen on the fuel servo.  

Next do a baby jar test.

Next find out when your fuel servo was OH last.

Inspect the Orings on fuel caps.   Replace with flurosilicone and clean and relube everything.

[takair]

As Eric said, check all screens and filters.  There is the gascolator, electric pump filter, and servo screen.  If there has been a persistent water problem, it can damage the servo and cause some pretty serious issues.  Looking at that screen can give a good indication of health.  
Do you have engine analyzer with recording capability?  What was fuel flow and pressure?  Did you note ChT or EgT show anything like a single cylinder going off line?  This is most typical of clogged injector.  All cylinders tends to be servo or spider and are obviously more hazardous.  Hope you can find something on ground…

[midlifeflyer]

25 minutes ago, Yetti said:

You took off with the electric fuel pump on.   (This would be a nope in most Mooney's) 

AFAIK, only the big Continental ones take off with boost pump off. The Lycoming- equipped have boot pump on for takeoff.

[Freddb34]

23 minutes ago, Yetti said:

You took off with the electric fuel pump on.   (This would be a nope in most Mooney's)   You turned the electric fuel pump off.   The engine quits.

Do a leak down test on the manual fuel pump.

On the ground.     Turn electric pump on.    Open Mixture.   count to 6 close mixture.   turn electric fuel pump off.    Watch Fuel pressure gauge.    Should stay up at pressure for at least a minute or longer. 

Clean the finger screen on the fuel servo.  

Next do a baby jar test.

Next find out when your fuel servo was OH last.

Inspect the Orings on fuel caps.   Replace with flurosilicone and clean and relube everything.

The AP ran both the manual and electric pump (plugs out, fuel injectors checked, lines in cups) and using both tanks.  Good fuel flow every time.  They did find that little bit of crap in the servo screen and that's when we looked in the tanks.  The AP is pretty convinced that there is some crap in the tanks that just worked its way down to the servo and  blocked the line for that brief instance while we were climbing out.  When we shut it down and restarted it, it probably fell out of that tiny fuel line and was running fine every since.  Maybe rebuilding the fuel servo is now a priority over anything else.  But we didn't see any water in the sump and we sumped it quite a few times (gascolator too).  And the check list does call for boost pump on for take off, shutting it off once you're up to 500-750 feet (just in case the mechanical pump fails you get to altitude).

 

[Freddb34]

9 minutes ago, takair said:

As Eric said, check all screens and filters.  There is the gascolator, electric pump filter, and servo screen.  If there has been a persistent water problem, it can damage the servo and cause some pretty serious issues.  Looking at that screen can give a good indication of health.  
Do you have engine analyzer with recording capability?  What was fuel flow and pressure?  Did you note ChT or EgT show anything like a single cylinder going off line?  This is most typical of clogged injector.  All cylinders tends to be servo or spider and are obviously more hazardous.  Hope you can find something on ground…

LOL...i was a bit busy with the whole "not dying in a fiery hole in the ground" to look at the gauges during the issue.  I do have a JDM and a CGR 30C (not sure if it records or not) but that's a great idea to look.  

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I suspect you had some water in the tanks.

If the tanks were just done make sure they didn't put sealant over the drain holes in the ribs. That can trap water, not letting it drain all the way down to the sump and then it gets jostled around making it to the pickup later in flight.

https://www.mooney201.de/files/M20-230A.pdf

[Yetti]

9 minutes ago, Freddb34 said:

The AP ran both the manual and electric pump (plugs out, fuel injectors checked, lines in cups) and using both tanks.  Good fuel flow every time.  They did find that little bit of crap in the servo screen and that's when we looked in the tanks.  The AP is pretty convinced that there is some crap in the tanks that just worked its way down to the servo and  blocked the line for that brief instance while we were climbing out.  When we shut it down and restarted it, it probably fell out of that tiny fuel line and was running fine every since.  Maybe rebuilding the fuel servo is now a priority over anything else.  But we didn't see any water in the sump and we sumped it quite a few times (gascolator too).  And the check list does call for boost pump on for take off, shutting it off once you're up to 500-750 feet (just in case the mechanical pump fails you get to altitude).

 

"The AP is pretty convinced that there is some crap in the tanks that just worked its way down to the servo and  blocked the line for that brief instance while we were climbing out."  There are three filters that would have to pass through.   Filter in the tank.   Filter at the Electric fuel pump.   Finger Screen at the Fuel Servo.     Which is why the Fuel Servo screen needs to be checked.   There are lots of little passages in the fuel servo that are not going to clear themselves.    

You have a better chance at a big slug of water killing the engine.   Problem is the water is gone now.

The mechanical fuel pump will still pump fuel and not pass the leak down test.    Do the leak down test. 

 

Yep you are right Electric Fuel pump on.  The IO 550 needs lots of fuel to start but too much fuel for low boost pump to remain on.    The Lycoming floods easy, but needs fuel to keep running. 

[Yetti]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

AFAIK, only the big Continental ones take off with boost pump off. The Lycoming- equipped have boot pump on for takeoff.

yep.   I guess my transition to the 550 is complete. 

[hazek]

2 hours ago, Freddb34 said:

is the likely culprit my fuel tanks (recently resealed) or does this FBO have some bad fuel?  I'm thinking it's the planes tanks and a good flushing will resolve the issue.

Without saying the data from the engine data monitor it's anybody's guess what went wrong. Do you have the data?

[Bolter]

3 hours ago, Freddb34 said:

Day one of Mooney ownership:

Met the seller at the airport, got the keys, logbooks, and had my CFI with me to take the plane up for a few hours and get some good landing practice and a few hours working through the systems.  Sounds good right?  So, we top off the tanks at said airport, taxi out, run up, everything is golden.  We line up, push the throttles forward and start my first take off roll in MY Mooney.  Climb out, gear up, flaps up and turn crosswind.  Shut off the boost pump, landing light and turn down wind.  Roll back the MP to 2500, roll back RPM to 2500.  Turn downwind and BAM!  THE ENGINE QUITS!  Fortunately there's 2 4000' runways directly underneath us.  While I worked on troubleshooting and getting the gear down, the CFI did 3 S-turns to get us into position to land,  I made the radio calls (good CRM here) and when we were on about a mile final, he handed the controls back over to me (good training).  I set it down, rolled off the runway.  We sat there for a few minutes and tried to restart the plane.  Fired right back up.  We taxied to the ramp, did two more run ups with no issues at all.  We decided to have the AP's look at it and they could find nothing wrong.  There was nothing in the injectors, plugs, servo (the screen did have some particulate matter but no blockage), both fuel pumps were moving fuel equally from both tanks and to all injectors and compressions were all 73+ (cold). An inspection of the tank revealed a lot of floating stuff in the fuel.  Found out the seller had used this same airport to fuel up 5 days prior and he too had an engine fuel related issue on take off (fouled injector).  The AP drained the tanks completely and used clean fuel to slosh around and see if he could knock anything else loose. 

Question for the group:  is the likely culprit my fuel tanks (recently resealed) or does this FBO have some bad fuel?  I'm thinking it's the planes tanks and a good flushing will resolve the issue.  As always, happy to be in this group and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  Thanks!

You do not specify which Mooney it is, which can influence some finer details, but generally the answers will be the same. 

I think in all Mooney's, dropping to the 25-25 is considered antiquated technique with some suggesting it is an old wives tale dating back to round engines.  I know the best technique for a IO 360 (like a J) is full power until cruising altitude, with mixture tweaking along the way.  If you are going to pattern, then full power until pattern, and transitioning to pattern power levels.  25-25 in climb is giving up power that gets you to a safer altitude.  The engine quitting at the power change may also be significant.  

-dan

[MB65E]

We are a full page into this which out knowing what engine? 

If lycoming. What is the idle mixture rise?

I have two Fuel injected Lycoming’s quit on Mooneys. Both I had previous issues with idle mixture response and adjustments not working. Thankfully only one was inflight. 
both required new fuel servos. 
-Matt

[EricJ]

If it was water it's likely that it got in through the filler cap if the o-rings are deteriorated, which isn't unusual.    If the aircraft gets stored outside during rain this is definitely something to keep an eye on.

[MikeOH]

6 hours ago, hazek said:

Without saying the data from the engine data monitor it's anybody's guess what went wrong. Do you have the data?

Frankly, even WITH the engine data it's going to be anybody's guess went wrong.  That is, just exactly what specific engine data is going to discern between water in the fuel and blockage due to crud?

[LANCECASPER]

14 hours ago, Freddb34 said:

Day one of Mooney ownership:

Met the seller at the airport, got the keys, logbooks, and had my CFI with me to take the plane up for a few hours and get some good landing practice and a few hours working through the systems.  Sounds good right?  So, we top off the tanks at said airport, taxi out, run up, everything is golden.  We line up, push the throttles forward and start my first take off roll in MY Mooney.  Climb out, gear up, flaps up and turn crosswind.  Shut off the boost pump, landing light and turn down wind.  Roll back the MP to 2500, roll back RPM to 2500.  Turn downwind and BAM!  THE ENGINE QUITS!  Fortunately there's 2 4000' runways directly underneath us.  While I worked on troubleshooting and getting the gear down, the CFI did 3 S-turns to get us into position to land,  I made the radio calls (good CRM here) and when we were on about a mile final, he handed the controls back over to me (good training).  I set it down, rolled off the runway.  We sat there for a few minutes and tried to restart the plane.  Fired right back up.  We taxied to the ramp, did two more run ups with no issues at all.  We decided to have the AP's look at it and they could find nothing wrong.  There was nothing in the injectors, plugs, servo (the screen did have some particulate matter but no blockage), both fuel pumps were moving fuel equally from both tanks and to all injectors and compressions were all 73+ (cold). An inspection of the tank revealed a lot of floating stuff in the fuel.  Found out the seller had used this same airport to fuel up 5 days prior and he too had an engine fuel related issue on take off (fouled injector).  The AP drained the tanks completely and used clean fuel to slosh around and see if he could knock anything else loose. 

Question for the group:  is the likely culprit my fuel tanks (recently resealed) or does this FBO have some bad fuel?  I'm thinking it's the planes tanks and a good flushing will resolve the issue.  As always, happy to be in this group and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  Thanks!

Were there any items that showed up in the pre-buy that required work right before you picked it up? Who did the pre-buy? Who did the work identified in the pre-buy?

Who did you pay to comb through every detail of the logs to see what kind of maintenance it has had, especially in recent years? Someone really good at going through logbooks and with a lot of Mooney experience can sift out airplanes from ever going to pre-buy.

If this is the airplane I think it is it has bladders not wet wing tanks, so tank sealant that you describe wouldn't apply. However bladders do not have an indefinite life. 

When you filled up right before take-off, did you sump the tanks? Did you find anything?

What model Mooney is this?  (so we know whether it's a fuel-injected or carb Lycoming or fuel-injected Continental)

Why didn't the Seller tell you, before he took your money, that he had a fuel related issue on take off 5 days earlier?  If he had a plugged injector something is mostly likely coming apart and is in the fuel lines. It could be the bladders if they are old and it sat for years outside in the heat.

Immediately I would ask the Seller for your money back. There is enough negligence on his part for not disclosing what happened 5 days earlier. He put your life at risk by not disclosing that. Get out of this one as soon as you can and let him re-sell it if it's such a great airplane. Don't let his problem be your problem. (If it's the airplane I think it is, according to the FAA, the person you bought it from, Thomas Boardman, is an A & P and an ATP with a 737 Type Rating. He does not want complaints to the FAA or his employer or notoriety on social media. If he is an honest seller he will rescind the deal and let you walk away. If he is a really decent guy he will reimburse whatever expenses out of pocket you had, since had he told you about about what happened 5 days earlier you would not have incurred those costs.)

- - - - - 

Is this the one you bought from the guy (Thomas Boardman) that bought it in 2024 (Conrad) who bought it out of annual and according to him "got a great price on this airplane)? :

 

 

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N79338/history/20251009/1601Z/5B2/5B2

 

When it was for sale in 2024 the Seller said, "Whoever gets it next needs to be ready for the cost of an overhaul, but I hope they also feel like the price I'm offering is a good deal that can be the start of a great relationship for someone who wants to spend their time and money taking care of this amazing old plane." Most people buy an airplane to fly, not as a project, which is what he was hinting that this one was.

[donkaye, MCFI]

Why did the Seller sell the plane right after purchasing it?  Same issue and didn't tell it to you?  I wouldn't consider flying in that plane until I had a definite reason for the engine failure.  What kind of confidence in the plane can anyone have in such a circumstance?  Suppose the engine had quit right after takeoff at 400 feet.  You had a lucky day.

[MikeOH]

I'd be VERY curious how many hours the seller put on the plane in the year, or less, that he owned it.

[Matthew P]

11 hours ago, Freddb34 said:

But wouldn't that make it run rough and not just quit altogether?  Or does water affect a FI engine more than a carbed one? 

Your reply SHOULD have been....During preflight when I sumped the tanks, there was no water in the samples..So, did you sump the tanks?

[Justin Schmidt]

48 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Your reply SHOULD have been....During preflight when I sumped the tanks, there was no water in the samples..So, did you sump the tanks?

I have learned to shake the wing when i show up to preflight and do a full gats jar each wing

[cbarry]

You might consider checking the vent lines on the fuel tanks for an  obstruction or partial obstruction.  With the fuel boost pump on, or at low power setting, the engine may be getting enough fuel, but at high/takeoff power  the engine driven fuel pump without the boost pump may not be sufficient if the tank vent lines are mostly obstructed.  Of course, you could look at the wing you’re drawing fuel from and watch the tank area start to collapse if the vent line is mostly obstructed.