Legal action against a Certain Facility in Florida

[richardheitzman]

Hello everyone,

 

I was contacted by a aircraft owner who is in the middle of a law suit against a facility in Florida that is known to the Mooney community to be, let's say, less then reputable. This time, this facility, has done somthing that has captured the attention of federal alphabet agency, as well other officials in the state.

In order to bolster the case, this person has asked me to interact with the Mooney community to find others who have suffered like this person has. So if you are wiling to provide information regarding your issues with this facility, then please PM me you name only, and I will put you in contact with each other.

Thanks

 

Rich

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Why are you talking in circles? As not everyone is going to understand what your talking about would it not be easier to just state the facts as you know them to be?

[231flyer]

Law-suits to recover damages for shoddy workmanship  and/or over-charging are not as effective as we would like. Typically the process is slow and expensive for the plaintiff. The outcome is sheldom as we desire even if you win, collecting a judgement is another matter completely.  Although the FAA and your local FSDO can be used to bring an errant shop to heal, typically the violation needs to be egregious and pertain to specific rules and regulations.  Time keeping and overcharging for jobs not backed up by time cards are a good example as is general paperwork (records, yellow tags etc.). The FAA will not help you recover your money!  If a shop has wronged you, its best to withhold payment or failing that pay by credit card and then dispute the charges.  Inform the flying community around you (like this forum) so they can avoid the shop and strave out the business.  Be careful to be very specific about your own expereince so as to avoid any charges of libel. Remember the truth is always on your side, just stick to your own facts not what happened to someone else.  Sorry to hear about your friend's situation but reputations do have a nasty habit of catching up eventually.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and this is not legal advise.

[jetdriven]

What I find disheartening is people still patronize shops that clearly victimize people and have reputations.  I never read anything bad about All American, Dugosh, Willmar, or Maxwell, for example.  Still, people take their plane to those guys in Chandler,  Atlanta, or Sarasota and lament at getting drilled for 20 or 30 grand at a time.  Our previous owners paid 1000$ to have a dual mag installed and retimed. 

[fantom]

Quote: jetdriven

What I find disheartening is people still patronize shops that clearly victimize people and have reputations.

[231flyer]

We need the equivalent of an "Angie's List" here.  At the very least we could start a separate top level FORUM for Mechanic/Shop complaints and then cross-link to MAPA, AOPA etc.  As long as we stick to our own expereince and not here-say the chances of a successful libel suit are remote.  The model has been proven with "Angie's List" so our members can be candid without worry of recourse.  My wife, an attorney, can draft a boiler-plate disclaimer so as protect us from the a-hole litigious types. How do we get a new forum injected into this board?

[Becca]

Quote: 231flyer

We need the equivalent of an "Angie's List" here.  At the very least we could start a separate top level FORUM for Mechanic/Shop complaints and then cross-link to MAPA, AOPA etc.  As long as we stick to our own expereince and not here-say the chances of a successful libel suit are remote.  The model has been proven with "Angie's List" so our members can be candid without worry of recourse.  My wife, an attorney, can draft a boiler-plate disclaimer so as protect us from the a-hole litigious types. How do we get a new forum injected into this board?

[231flyer]

Becca, I agree annonymity won't protect you from a libel law-suit, its easy to figure out your identity.  Many of us use AirNav FBO reviews before we launch into the wild blue yonder.  The FBO reviews are invaluable to us pilots but smart FBO operators find them great for business too.  My friend, Damon, runs BusinessAir at KDTO.  Although happy with a great review he is always looking to correct any bad reviews.  FBOs can post a retort to a bad review and for the most part the exchange is usually very positive. I try to review as many FBOs as possible especially the great ones. With the GA economy in the dole-drums I hardly expect your favorite A&P to turn you away because you posted a bad review about a fellow mechanic.  Black-balling only works if demand far exceeds the supply of A&Ps.  Our field now has 8 different A&P shops......lots of options.  I have personally had bad expereinces with 2 of the 8 over the past 12 years and have freely shared my experience in person and on this board. I find the process no different than sharing a resteraunt or movie review.  Lets be brave and help the newbies from getting taken. We already share our views on new products and services (eg: Stratus, foreflight, Garmin GTN etc), how is this any different.  Just stick to the truth and the truth will keep you libel FREE

[Becca]

Quote: 231flyer

Becca, I agree annonymity won't protect you from a libel law-suit, its easy to figure out your identity.  Many of us use AirNav FBO reviews before we launch into the wild blue yonder.  The FBO reviews are invaluable to us pilots but smart FBO operators find them great for business too.  My friend, Damon, runs BusinessAir at KDTO.  Although happy with a great review he is always looking to correct any bad reviews.  FBOs can post a retort to a bad review and for the most part the exchange is usually very positive. I try to review as many FBOs as possible especially the great ones. With the GA economy in the dole-drums I hardly expect your favorite A&P to turn you away because you posted a bad review about a fellow mechanic.  Black-balling only works if demand far exceeds the supply of A&Ps.  Our field now has 8 different A&P shops......lots of options.  I have personally had bad expereinces with 2 of the 8 over the past 12 years and have freely shared my experience in person and on this board. I find the process no different than sharing a resteraunt or movie review.  Lets be brave and help the newbies from getting taken. We already share our views on new products and services (eg: Stratus, foreflight, Garmin GTN etc), how is this any different.  Just stick to the truth and the truth will keep you libel FREE

[FlyDave]

Becca, I didn't want to cut and paste your whole statement, but it was well said.      

[Sabremech]

This topic has come up before and my comment will remain the same. As an A&P/IA the stories of dead beat and cheap pilots who won't pay their bill is the same as your list of bad shops or A&P's. If you're going to have a place to post reviews of shops or mechanics, then there needs to be another one for mechanics to share their experiences with cheap pilots. It goes both ways folks.

[Becca]

Quote: Sabremech

This topic has come up before and my comment will remain the same. As an A&P/IA the stories of dead beat and cheap pilots who won't pay their bill is the same as your list of bad shops or A&P's. If you're going to have a place to post reviews of shops or mechanics, then there needs to be another one for mechanics to share their experiences with cheap pilots. It goes both ways folks.

[Sabremech]

It's not an apples to apples comparison to relate an aircraft repair shop to a restaurant for the purposes of this discussion. Aren't bad shops or mechanics the same as bad or cheap pilots? Have you ever tried to put a mechanics lien on an airplane? It's not that easy to do. Yes, it can be done but can cost more than the bill to collect. So what do we do? We typically cave into the owner and sell ourselves short because we don't have the resources as the owner/pilot. So why can't we have a forum to share information about cheap owners or those who default on their bill? Let's be fair and have an "Angie's List" of bad owner/pilots! Why should this be one sided against a shop or mechanic? A review is a review! 

[Becca]

Quote: Sabremech

It's not an apples to apples comparison to relate an aircraft repair shop to a restaurant for the purposes of this discussion. Aren't bad shops or mechanics the same as bad or cheap pilots? Have you ever tried to put a mechanics lien on an airplane? It's not that easy to do. Yes, it can be done but can cost more than the bill to collect. So what do we do? We typically cave into the owner and sell ourselves short because we don't have the resources as the owner/pilot. So why can't we have a forum to share information about cheap owners or those who default on their bill? Let's be fair and have an "Angie's List" of bad owner/pilots! Why should this be one sided against a shop or mechanic? A review is a review! 

[Lionudakis]

Quote: Sabremech

This topic has come up before and my comment will remain the same. As an A&P/IA the stories of dead beat and cheap pilots who won't pay their bill is the same as your list of bad shops or A&P's. If you're going to have a place to post reviews of shops or mechanics, then there needs to be another one for mechanics to share their experiences with cheap pilots. It goes both ways folks.

[231flyer]

In my 20 years of aircraft ownership and 38 years of flying/gliding I have run into a grand total of 3 incompetent mechanics. I am a self admitted aviation nut and I find our small community (~500,000 in GA) to be incredible.  We are passionate about flying and always trying to infect others with this great gift we share.  I have orders of magnitude more stories of mechanics who were not only professional but went out of their way to get me going whether stuck with a dead battery or a dead mag.  I believe all of us pilots realize most mechanics are honest professionals who truly take pride in their work and keep us and our families safe in the skies.

Sabermech, I do believe in symmetry. Maybe we can have a Forum to highlight A&Ps, the great ones who deserve our increased patronage, and the few crappy ones who don't. I would love my personal mechanic, Gary Haltom, at KDTO to be known everywhere for being truly great and to drive more business to him. I shared Gary's info with one of our members looking to do a pre-buy at our field, advising him against the offending shop. He did his own due dilligence and came up with corroborating evidence for Gary and against the other shop. In order to keep GA alive, we need all the good A&Ps we can find especially since the GA fleet is quickly aging past an average age of 40 years.

As Becca says most of this intel. is already shared within your local EAA, AOPA, or hangar talk group.  Its about rewarding the good mechanics out there and rehabilitating the habitually dishonest or incompetent. Btw I must admit I have never been turned away by a mechanic - ever! And I am openly opinionated. As for deadbeat pilots, contact your local collection agency if the hassle of a lien seems unwarranted.  Absolutely no reason to tolerate a thief.

[Lionudakis]

I also agree with Becca, Aircraft services are not different than any other service, on time within reason, good communications, fair prices, integrity, and (I'm cheap myself) a sense of economics. I own my plane too, it doesn't mean my trees at home grow money. I take care of a few turboprops, them boys are as frugal as I am.

 

[jetdriven]

Quote: Sabremech

It's not an apples to apples comparison to relate an aircraft repair shop to a restaurant for the purposes of this discussion. Aren't bad shops or mechanics the same as bad or cheap pilots? Have you ever tried to put a mechanics lien on an airplane? It's not that easy to do. Yes, it can be done but can cost more than the bill to collect. So what do we do? We typically cave into the owner and sell ourselves short because we don't have the resources as the owner/pilot. So why can't we have a forum to share information about cheap owners or those who default on their bill? Let's be fair and have an "Angie's List" of bad owner/pilots! Why should this be one sided against a shop or mechanic? A review is a review! 

[jetdriven]

Quote: Lionudakis

I also agree with Becca, Aircraft services are not different than any other service, on time within reason, good communications, fair prices, integrity, and (I'm cheap myself) a sense of economics. I own my plane too, it doesn't mean my trees at home grow money. I take care of a few turboprops, them boys are as frugal as I am.

 

 

[Sabremech]

I'll relate a personal experience to defend why this is not the kind of information that should be aired on a public forum. Over two years ago, I was accused of being unsafe in regards to my maint actions that were videoed for us to use on our website. The person we had come up and do the video posted it online and made the accusations that I had complete disregard for the safety of the ground crew members and that my actions were to impress the boss. Do you understand the anger I had when I read this on a public forum? Do you understand the time it took to prove to those who jump to conclusions that the whole story wasn't presented? 

No where in the attack on me on the public forum did it say that we had the fire department standing by, discussed who's responsibilities it was for each operation we did and what our emergency plan was. 

It took a very long time to clear this up including getting an apology from the accuser in person but not on the forum. 

In light of my personal experience, it is a very bad idea to make accusations about someone or some shop on a public forum. It's down right wrong as you don't give the accused a chance to tell their side of the story. Luckily for me, I followed the forum and was able to head it off early, but it really frustrated me. 

So in my opinion, it is gutless to post about someone on a public forum, especially when you don't give them an opportunity to tell their side. 

I hope this clears up my knee jerk reaction!

[Becca]

Quote: Sabremech

In light of my personal experience, it is a very bad idea to make accusations about someone or some shop on a public forum. It's down right wrong as you don't give the accused a chance to tell their side of the story. Luckily for me, I followed the forum and was able to head it off early, but it really frustrated me. 

So in my opinion, it is gutless to post about someone on a public forum, especially when you don't give them an opportunity to tell their side.

[231flyer]

David, Our members will continue to post bad reviews of shops regardless.  Its in human nature to complain if you feel wronged, however the reverse is not always true.  We are less prone to post praise even though we are delighted (CRM 101). Search "Mooney Mart" or "Coy Jacobs" and you will find numerous posts on this board, let alone other "public forums" or even google. A destination forum would allow our members better access to the intel. and providers like yourself a place to go check for bad reviews which can be corrected.  In the internet age you cannot prevent a consumer from blabbing about their own experience.  Federal and State laws are quite strong on preserving consumer rights. I would like to encourage the reverse, have members highlight the great shops out there.

With ~4000 Mooneys in the US fleet, assume ~50% owners visit this board or MAPA you are looking at a potential $10Mil market (2000 a/c X $5000/yr in MX spend). As a businessman I woould be delighted to have such concentrated access to my market. The FAA claims ~180,000 active A&P licenses.  Assuming half work in commercial aviation 90,000 A&Ps are focused on the GA space.  With an active fleet of ~400,000 a/c in the US thats 4.44 a/c per mechanic. According to my mechanic (single operator shop now) he tries to have ~50 a/c in his stable. That gives him an average of one annual per week and standard break/fix during the interim.  He runs the shop with his wife so grossing ~$300k per year works for him but obviously he is not rolling in it.  This clearly illustrates a supply/demand imbalance in favor of the owners (local supply may vary). We have 8 shops on our field alone, 70+ shops in the DFW area.

Public forums have the potential to help you build your business given the intense economics. The downside is relatively small given people are posting bad reviews anyway.

[richardheitzman]

Well, nice discussion and from the first responce I want to say that I don't want to talk in circles, but since I am not involved in the law suit I dont want to be drug into it by putting names in a public forum. You all know who I am talking about in Florida. If you want to participate in the issue then let me know and I will connect you with the person I mentioned.

[scottfromiowa]

I think this site does a great job of sharing positive experiences with equipment, gear, avionics etc.  I have no concern with relating positive experiences regarding service received by shops whether they do annuals, overhauls or repairs.  I agree that communicating negatives...except for horrible examples like the submerged M20E being re-numbered and sold should NOT be the focus of the site...for reasons mentioned.  While I cringe at some of the bills when I pay them for maintenance and upgrades...I HAVE NEVER BEEN SURPRISED as I communicate with those doing the work.  I prefer "Thrifty" to cheap, but I gladly wer that label.

[jetdriven]

I was surprised when I paid someone 500$  to remove a cylinder to check for corrosion, saw this, and didnt tell me.

rigged the ailerons 3 degrees above allowable specs, with rigging boards, for  165$.

 

Then 50 hours after picking up our plane, and 358$ in alternator change labor saw this. 

getting shafted for 625$ in "ifr inspection and calibrate VOR#2" (which was inop), and not authorized work.

 

Wouldnt that make you feel good having them not return your calls until the day after you left for 40 days, and then hassling your wife about "motors and stuff"  (using overly techincal terms to avoid a rational argument) and then presenting a bill for 2500$ for basically nothing. Then having all this happen later.

 

Id love to hear more stories.