Mooney Aircraft Accident Nampa, ID

[201er]

35 minutes ago, Echo said:

I know Hank. I was legal VFR during entire flight. That said, actual ability to see forward and right was compromised. I could see ground to left, but see and avoid?  Nope. If they were not broadcasting position they were invisible in smoke…NOT doing that flight again if there is south wind. I don’t like 11mph headwind anyway. 

 

Then you weren’t “legal VFR”. 

 

 

91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:

Class E: Less than 10,000 feet MSL 3 statute miles

 

 

1. Flight Visibility- The average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.

 

Edited August 1 by 201er

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

 

Then you weren’t “legal VFR”. 

 

 

91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:

Class E: Less than 10,000 feet MSL 3 statute miles

 

 

1. Flight Visibility- The average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.

 

 That’s so vague it’s nearly useless 

 

is there a clear definition to what the heck a “prominent object” even is?

ain’t in FAR 1.1

 

Smoke is a funny one to fly around, I wish Canada would better manage their forests so we wouldn’t have to have all the smoke in the northern states, same with CA

 

It is often much easer to see towers and such in smoke vs a white airplane 

Edited August 1 by Jackk

[IvanP]

Judging lateral visibility limits in haze/smoke is rather difficult from the cockpit if you do not have known reference points. While it may be legal to fly VFR in smoke/haze, it may not necessarily be safe. I usually file IFR when I have to fly through smoke. Most controllers have no issue with pop-up clearances in such situations and it adds an additional margin of safety.  

[MikeOH]

15 hours ago, DCarlton said:

We sit so close to the yoke and panel it would have to be a well designed system.  To be honest I don’t have shoulder belts.  They’ve been on my wish list.  Thanks for the reminder.  

YIKES!  Sorry to be harsh, but GET THEM INSTALLED!!

Absolutely the first thing I did when I got my plane was install shoulder harnesses. I honestly couldn't believe that not one of the previous owners of my 1970 aircraft had put them in!

[exM20K]

40 minutes ago, Jackk said:

is there a clear definition to what the heck a “prominent object” even is?

Projecting from the ground.  Common usage, not an aviation term.

-dan

[exM20K]

34 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

YIKES!  Sorry to harsh, but GET THEM INSTALLED!!

Absolutely the first thing I did when I got my plane was install shoulder harnesses. I honestly couldn't believe that not one of previous owners of my 1970 aircraft had put them in!

Yeah, this for sure.  if you have money burning a hole in you pocket, AmSafe is another option.  The Sr22 that got pointed into the runway at Hollister, CA by an RV taking off from a taxiway showed deployed airbags in the post-crash photos, and I 'm pretty sure that was beneficial to the occupants.  Blancolirio Youtube

That was a hard hit.

-dan

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

Projecting from the ground.  Common usage, not an aviation term.

-dan

Like my little rural mailbox?

 Or like a 3,000’ tower? 
 

How about a 100’ flag pole without a flag?  

10 story building?

 

If they don’t define their terms for their rule, the rule is pointless and too vague 

Edited August 1 by Jackk

[Jackk]

57 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Yeah, this for sure.  if you have money burning a hole in you pocket, AmSafe is another option.  The Sr22 that got pointed into the runway at Hollister, CA by an RV taking off from a taxiway showed deployed airbags in the post-crash photos, and I 'm pretty sure that was beneficial to the occupants.  Blancolirio Youtube

That was a hard hit.

-dan

 I’d get inertial reels with turn buckle release, non inertial is more a feel good mod as its often too loose to help in a crash or too tight to reach gear flaps etc 

 BAS is the gold standard IMO

https://basinc-aeromod.com/testimonials.php

[MikeOH]

34 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 I’d get inertial reels with turn buckle release, non inertial is more a feel good mod as its often too loose to help in a crash or too tight to reach gear flaps etc 

 BAS is the gold standard IMO

https://basinc-aeromod.com/testimonials.php

Just going to offer a different perspective here, not saying one is right vs. the other.

I evaluated the fixed/inertia pros/cons when I installed mine.  I went for fixed for two reasons*:

1) The passenger side one interferes with ingress/egress, especially for rear passengers. Sure, I guess you could just install inertia on the pilot's side.

2) I like the secure hold that I get on take off and landing when I 'cinch' the shoulder strap tight.  It's part of my checklist.  In flight I find it much more comfortable after being loosened than the inertia ones; very easy to slip it off to reach the tank, or for comfort.

YMMV

*CBs like myself also like the cost savings

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, IvanP said:

Most controllers have no issue with pop-up clearances in such situations and it adds an additional margin of safety.  

^^^ THIS ^^^

A few years back during "fire season" here in southern California*, the visibility due to smoke haze was really poor in the northern areas of LA (San Fernando and Simi Valleys) and I was on my way to Camarillo (CMA) when visibility got really sucky...like it was getting where I knew I would only be able to see straight down!  I was on FF and merely asked SoCal for an IFR clearance as visibility was getting poor.  They immediately came back with a clearance direct to CMA...I already had a squawk and was talking to them. Easy peasy.

 

*Only two seasons in southern California: Fire and Flood

[kortopates]

We sit so close to the yoke and panel it would have to be a well designed system.  To be honest I don’t have shoulder belts.  They’ve been on my wish list.  Thanks for the reminder.  

Just wow! Call these guys today and order their kit to install shoulder belts in at least the front seats. The life you save is very likely to be your own!

https://alphaaviation.com/upgrade-by-minor-change/

I used to be able to find the link to the actual shoulder belt kit for the M20 they sell but could not this time. it’s hard to fit the bracket on but it does fit - hundreds of these have been installed.
If you have a J bar the push button release is better way to go too.


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[Mooney in Oz]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

1) The passenger side one interferes with ingress/egress, especially for rear passengers. Sure, I guess you could just install inertia on the pilot's side.

I have the retractable belts and you are right about the ingress/egress issues. I’m thinking of going back to the previous fixed belt on the pax side only. Otherwise I find it a great addition to the pilot side.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Just wow! Call these guys today and order their kit to install shoulder belts in at least the front seats. The life you save is very likely to be your own!

https://alphaaviation.com/upgrade-by-minor-change/

I used to be able to find the link to the actual shoulder belt kit for the M20 they sell but could not this time. it’s hard to fit the bracket on but it does fit - hundreds of these have been installed.
If you have a J bar the push button release is better way to go too.


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Need to do it.  Drug my feet after reading the stories about how difficult it is to install the retaining clamps on the steel cage.  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Need to do it.  Drug my feet after reading the stories about how difficult it is to install the retaining clamps on the steel cage.  

Let me know and I’ll come over and help you invent new four-letter words!

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Let me know and I’ll come over and help you invent new four-letter words!

So installation does suck?  Nothing more irritating that a bolt on kit that doesn't bolt on... 

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, DCarlton said:

So installation does suck?  Nothing more irritating that a bolt on kit that doesn't bolt on... 

The passenger is not really that bad; it was eight years ago but I don't think I spent more than an hour removing trim and getting the clamp on.

Pilot side....yeah, that was a b...h!  Tried all kinds of things over half a day! What finally worked for me was to bend the clamp open, then 'feed' it between the cage frame tube and skin at the top of the cage, then slide it down to the correct pillar location and bend the clamp closed.  That only took 30 minutes, once I figured out to try that!

[Shadrach]

On 7/30/2025 at 12:56 AM, Vance Harral said:

Sure.  But that will not give you a meaningfully different final mixture setting than leaning until the engine runs a bit rough, then enrichening "a smidge".

I find the latter technique faster, and therefore less noisy with less wear and tear.  But it would probably be a wash if I consistently leaned by EGT during runup, so as to get more efficient at doing so.  No criticism from me on the EGT technique.

Reminder: all this discussion is relative to normally aspirated engines.  Turbocharged airplanes should be set full rich for takeoff at any density altitude.

You may be doing yourself a disservice with the above technique. Depending on DA, the spectrum of mixture settings where an IO360 begins to run rough varies considerably with available MP. In my experience these engines can run smoothly as far as 100LOP or more at lower DAs to 40ish LOP above 10K. Depending on what a “smidge” is, it’s conceivable that your technique might result in a take off mixture setting  on the lean side of peak.

 

[kortopates]

There are many ways to set mixture for high DA departures for a NA engine, but none are as easy and accurate as using your engine analyzer! Almost all Mooney's have engine analyzer in them right? Well all the trainers in the local flying club have approved for primary analyzers so that they could ditch those inop and inaccurate 40-50 yr old factory instruments. All it takes is basic EGT monitor to set mixture using the Target EGT method.
Basically you simply observe what your EGTs are departing from a near sea level airport. And if you haven't been able to do that in a long time or rarely I suggest you use 1350F for your target.
Then for any high DA airport, set up to do a short field takeoff where you hold the brakes while you watch power to come up to full power, except now lean the full power mixture to your target EGT or 1350F. Then release the brakes and start the takeoff run. Its going to change a bit on the take off run but you'll be pretty close. Then in climb just keep slowly leaning in climb to maintain that target egt or 1350F all the way up from sea level till the engine can't produce max cruise power of 75% or less; e.g. ~8K DA and higher. When power has dropped off to below your max cruise power or 75% you are free to lean as aggressively as you want subject to keeping your CHTs in check.
Don't have at least a basic engine analyzer? You really should considering the value of your engine not to mention your precious cargo. An engine analyzer in the hands of a smart pilot provides critical safety of flight information on the health of the engine and has saved this pilots butt more times than I can recall. 

[kortopates]

So installation does suck?  Nothing more irritating that a bolt on kit that doesn't bolt on... 

Yeah everyone has bitched about the installation but better to bitch about it after and stay alive if your engine decides to give up the ghost at an inopportune time leading to an off airport landing. And trust me, you won't like we'll be saying about you if you don't get this done before you need it: "He was such a smart pilot; except for dragging his feet for so many years....and then had to rely on luck rather than his superior ADM....but it wasn't his lucky day (( 

[Echo]

On 8/1/2025 at 9:40 AM, 201er said:

 

Then you weren’t “legal VFR”. 

 

 

91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:

Class E: Less than 10,000 feet MSL 3 statute miles

 

 

1. Flight Visibility- The average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.

 

Fair enough. EVERY airport listed asMVFR on route. NOT flying in smoke again. Lesson learned. 

[Echo]

On 8/1/2025 at 9:40 AM, 201er said:

 

Then you weren’t “legal VFR”. 

 

 

91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:

Class E: Less than 10,000 feet MSL 3 statute miles

 

 

1. Flight Visibility- The average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.

 

I didn’t have any OBJECTS in front of me. Just smoke…

[Mooney in Oz]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

Basically you simply observe what your EGTs are departing from a near sea level airport. And if you haven't been able to do that in a long time or rarely I suggest you use 1350F for your target.

From the Garmin EIS in my J, the highest cylinder (no 4) EGT on takeoff indicates 1250F at full power and full rich. Is that set too rich or am I overthinking it?

[kortopates]

From the Garmin EIS in my J, the highest cylinder (no 4) EGT on takeoff indicates 1250F at full power and full rich. Is that set too rich or am I overthinking it?

It’s richer than most; especially for a lycoming. But not at all too rich. Yet in climb i would still recommend leaning to 1350 as long as your CHTs were fine; a little richer if not.


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[Echo]

On 8/1/2025 at 1:05 PM, Jackk said:

 I’d get inertial reels with turn buckle release, non inertial is more a feel good mod as its often too loose to help in a crash or too tight to reach gear flaps etc 

 BAS is the gold standard IMO

https://basinc-aeromod.com/testimonials.php

Disagree. Very easily loosed and tightened. Easy to release shoulder strap to swap tanks and reattach. Literally one second. Less expensive. When snug it’s snug. 

[Shadrach]

10 hours ago, kortopates said:

There are many ways to set mixture for high DA departures for a NA engine, but none are as easy and accurate as using your engine analyzer! Almost all Mooney's have engine analyzer in them right? Well all the trainers in the local flying club have approved for primary analyzers so that they could ditch those inop and inaccurate 40-50 yr old factory instruments. All it takes is basic EGT monitor to set mixture using the Target EGT method.
Basically you simply observe what your EGTs are departing from a near sea level airport. And if you haven't been able to do that in a long time or rarely I suggest you use 1350F for your target.
Then for any high DA airport, set up to do a short field takeoff where you hold the brakes while you watch power to come up to full power, except now lean the full power mixture to your target EGT or 1350F. Then release the brakes and start the takeoff run. Its going to change a bit on the take off run but you'll be pretty close. Then in climb just keep slowly leaning in climb to maintain that target egt or 1350F all the way up from sea level till the engine can't produce max cruise power of 75% or less; e.g. ~8K DA and higher. When power has dropped off to below your max cruise power or 75% you are free to lean as aggressively as you want subject to keeping your CHTs in check.
Don't have at least a basic engine analyzer? You really should considering the value of your engine not to mention your precious cargo. An engine analyzer in the hands of a smart pilot provides critical safety of flight information on the health of the engine and has saved this pilots butt more times than I can recall. 

Completely agree that target EGT is the best approach.  I’m of the opinion that an EGT of 1200°-1250° is a more ideal target for an IO360 with an 8.7 to 1 C/R.