Best Mooney Model for the Mission Question

[igorbly]

Hi guys,
I have talked to a few of you in person and received a few different replies already on this question, so I figured a poll of the MS community at large was in order.

Mission: About 850 nm trips once or twice a month (WJF-SHR if you want to look at the exact route). Willing and likely to stop halfway for bathroom/food. Two slimmish adults primarily, along with baby in the near future. We'll go VFR if we can, but definitely want the ability to go full IFR (FIKI on dream wishlist), especially for flight levels if you think it's worth it. Would like to get close to 190 KTAS, but budget is around $160,000, so willing to settle for a little less. Looking for best economy with good speed still.

So which model would you choose? Please tell me also if you disagree with the speeds I've collected from Internet research. These are ROP near optimum altitude:

201 - 165 KTAS

231 - 185 KTAS

252 - 195 KTAS

Rocket - 205 KTAS

Bravo - 200 KTAS

Ovation - 180 KTAS

 

[John Pleisse]

252...without a doubt. The typical usefuls on the 252's are in the 800's...just know that going in.

[gjkirsch]

I think the speeds on the 201, 231, and 252  are about 10 knots high.  The Bravo will do 200 but you have to go high.  You did not include the eagle (M20S) but you may just be able to get into one in your price range and it may be the best deal.  I don't think you can get much more than a higher time engine plane in a Bravo or Ovation for 160K.  Do not forget that first year of maintenance always seems to include some unpleasant surprises.

[rainman]

I have a 231 and there is no advantage (except it was $60K less) to having that rather than a 252 .  The 252 is an easier engine to manage according to all reports.  You may be able to find one in your budget.  If you want to get there fast, get a Rocket and don't stop half way.   If time doesn't matter, then speed isn't that big an issue with only a small advantage of one model over the others. With the mountains along your route, you may find a turbo useful (some passengers and little kiddos don't do well with the Oxygen canula, so if you don't go high you don't need a turbo because the performance advantage occurs above 10K), otherwise get a really sweet 201 with the latest greatest avionics and put the rest of the cash in your maintenance fund. Ray

[KSMooniac]

Lots of trade-offs to consider in this equation.  I don't know those airport identifiers and am too lazy to plot a route.  That is a pet peeve of mine... I wish folks would just use city names b/c none of us have every identifier memorized.  Are there mountains or typical bad winter weather in the way?  That is important to know.

Your 201 speed is very optimistic...maybe for a late model or one heavily modified with a LoPresti cowl and other speed mods.  155 KTAS is more realistic for a high power ROP cruise, 150 KTAS for a better LOP cruise.  For a very regular trip of that length I would not choose a 201 as the extra speed of the other models will really pay off.

The 231 and 252 speeds seem about 10 knots too optimistic too unless taken into the flight levels, but I am not an operator of those so I'll defer to someone else.  

Equally important to your purchase budget is your operating budget since you'll have to live with that every trip.  If you're willing to burn 17-20+ GPH and pay more for an engine overhaul, then a Rocket or Bravo sounds like a good choice.  Otherwise a 231 or 252 would be a great choice.

You can only get FIKI on the Ovation, Bravo, and some of the 252's.  With $160k purchase budget, I don't think you can get a quality Bravo or Ovation, and most likely not one with TKS.  There is a sweet looking Rocket at All-American right now with non-FIKI TKS and good equipment for around that price.

The final consideration is the use of oxygen.  Will both adults mind a nose hose, and can one of them monitor a baby sufficiently?  If not, then you'll want/have to stay in the lower altitudes and the speed advantage of a turbo is diminished somewhat.  If that is the case, then an Ovation or Missile stand out as the best choice IMO.  $160k should buy a very good Missile.  The extra 20-30 knots cruise of an Ovation or Missile in the lower altitudes is very significant on such a long trip.  An Eagle with the Ovation conversion is also a possibility.

[MooneyMitch]

This should be a lengthy thread!  

By the way, the 180kts is accurate for my 1994 R model.

[KSMooniac]

Quote: Mitch

This should be a lengthy thread!

[David Mazer]

A Rocket at altitude will do closer to 220 at 20 GPH and 205-210 at 18 GPH, but you need to be in the low 20s, and get you there without a fuel stop eastbound in about 4-4.5 hr depending on tailwind.  You may need to stop westbound.  Rockets are going for the price range, and less, in which you speak but you will probably need to put some money into it.  Everybody I know that has bought a Rocket for a low price has but still ended up at a reasonable investment.  Rockets cannot be FIKI but they can and do have TKS. I know not from first hand experience but most reports are that the 252 is superior to a 231 in significant ways but I don't think the price difference is as significant so I would go with the 252.  A Bravo has the longer body and that is nice but I don't particularly like the higher instrument panel and the decreased veiw.

An Acclaim would be nice but well out of the price range.

I think I would go with a Rocket first if FIKI wasn't a requirement and then a toss up between a Bravo and a 252 depending on which one showed up that was the best value. Considering where you are flying, I would want a turbo for an extra safety margin.  Just my opinion.

[GeorgePerry]

 Your mission takes you over some pretty high terrain so it's well suited for a turbo model 231/252.  However, Babies, high altitude and O2 don't go well together.   Any of the NA models would also meet your requirements but the M20J really runs out of power above 12,000, so I think if you go that route I'd stick to an IO-550 equipped model.

Turbo or non turbo - Speed costs money.  The faster you want to go the more you'll spend.  Dollar for dollar you can find more efficient travel than the M20J, albieit you'll add about a 45 minutes to your block time when compaired to a IO-550 or M20K.  As an earlierposter said, I think an M20S is a good compromise between ultimate NA speed and M20J efficiency, but for your western US flying I'd likely go with a 252 and call it good. 

[Cris]

Mission: About 850 nm trips once or twice a month (WJF-SHR if you want to look at the exact route). Willing and likely to stop halfway for bathroom/food. Two slimmish adults primarily, along with baby in the near future. 

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: igorbly

Hi guys,

I have talked to a few of you in person and received a few different replies already on this question, so I figured a poll of the MS community at large was in order.

Mission: About 850 nm trips once or twice a month (WJF-SHR if you want to look at the exact route). Willing and likely to stop halfway for bathroom/food. Two slimmish adults primarily, along with baby in the near future. We'll go VFR if we can, but definitely want the ability to go full IFR (FIKI on dream wishlist), especially for flight levels if you think it's worth it. Would like to get close to 190 KTAS, but budget is around $160,000, so willing to settle for a little less. Looking for best economy with good speed still.

So which model would you choose? Please tell me also if you disagree with the speeds I've collected from Internet research. These are ROP near optimum altitude:

201 - 165 KTAS

231 - 185 KTAS

252 - 195 KTAS

Rocket - 205 KTAS

Bravo - 200 KTAS

Ovation - 180 KTAS

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: igorbly

Hi guys,

I have talked to a few of you in person and received a few different replies already on this question, so I figured a poll of the MS community at large was in order.

Mission: About 850 nm trips once or twice a month (WJF-SHR if you want to look at the exact route). Willing and likely to stop halfway for bathroom/food. Two slimmish adults primarily, along with baby in the near future. We'll go VFR if we can, but definitely want the ability to go full IFR (FIKI on dream wishlist), especially for flight levels if you think it's worth it. Would like to get close to 190 KTAS, but budget is around $160,000, so willing to settle for a little less. Looking for best economy with good speed still.

So which model would you choose? Please tell me also if you disagree with the speeds I've collected from Internet research. These are ROP near optimum altitude:

201 - 165 KTAS

231 - 185 KTAS

252 - 195 KTAS

Rocket - 205 KTAS

Bravo - 200 KTAS

Ovation - 180 KTAS

 

[igorbly]

Quote: KSMooniac

Another thought occurred to me.... the 252 can be converted to the Encore configuration (as Parker has done) to get some more useful load.  This could be beneficial if the baby is fed and grows heavier over time.

[Parker_Woodruff]

cruise figures that I've seen in flight:

 

14,000' - 173 KTAS on 10.8-11 GPH peak/barely LOP (pre-GAMI)

14,000' - 178 KTAS on 12.0 GPH LOP

16,000' (typical westbound long range cruise altitude) - 182-185 KTAS on 12.0-12.2 GPH LOP'

17,000' - 187-190 KTAS on 12.0-12.2 GPH LOP

FL190 - 188-190 KTAS on 12 GPH LOP

 

I'm planning on spending some time at FL210 next week between Dallas and Richmond, VA (hopefully nonstop) and will get some data there with my new Tempest Fine Wire Plugs

[Parker_Woodruff]

Also, you can add 230 lbs to your max takeoff weight with an Encore Conversion. Have a Mooney Service Center that talks to the factory regularly do the work as the factory took 3 months for some of my parts. 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

cruise figures that I've seen in flight:

 

14,000' - 173 KTAS on 10.8-11 GPH peak/barely LOP (pre-GAMI)

14,000' - 178 KTAS on 12.0 GPH LOP

16,000' (typical westbound long range cruise altitude) - 182-185 KTAS on 12.0-12.2 GPH LOP'

17,000' - 187-190 KTAS on 12.0-12.2 GPH LOP

FL190 - 188-190 KTAS on 12 GPH LOP

 

I'm planning on spending some time at FL210 next week between Dallas and Richmond, VA (hopefully nonstop) and will get some data there with my new Tempest Fine Wire Plugs

[johnggreen]

For reliable, safe, and economical travel twice a month on your budget, the choice is simple:  Delta Airlines.

Everything else is a pipe dream.

Jgreen

[Parker_Woodruff]

Looking at that route, above (didn't see the pic last night), I want a turbo.  I'd also consider a Cessna P210 in addition to Mooneys M20K, M, TN since you have a kid.  Operating budget would have to be able to support that, though.

I've gone to O2 altitudes more than once with myself and friends on cannulas, but everyone is different - also we're in our 20s and a young kid with cannula might not be too agreeable (and wives sometimes feel the same way)

[gjkirsch]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-Mooney-M20-K-252-TSE-/140757622532?pt=Motors_Aircraft&hash=item20c5cedf04

 

Don't know anything about it. But assuming the damange was properly repaired, looks reasonable. I do think they have the incorrect engine listed. If I remember correctly, it is the MB not the GB in the 252

[ChrisH]

Going over the mountains low on a regular basis will be tricky with wx/wind (mountain wave). Putting o2 on a child will be impossible. I love my 231, but if this was my mission with MSA's on your route of over 12k, I'd look at (better if it was FIKI)

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-P210-RILEY-ROCKET/1980-CESSNA-P210-RILEY-ROCKET/1231191.htm?

Or, better a twin (Aerostar would be great, and you can find deals...but operating costs will be at least 3x).

 

Chris.

[fantom]

Quote: johnggreen

For reliable, safe, and economical travel twice a month on your budget, the choice is simple:  Delta Airlines.

Everything else is a pipe dream.

Jgreen

[aviatoreb]

Quote: fantom

Painful, but sooooo true, John!

[jetdriven]

Carefully conside the hourly cost of operation as well.

A 201 is in the ~100$ range.  231 is going to be another 20%. Bravo is probably double.  Aerostar is probably triple. A King Air 90 is ten times the amount of a 201 on an hourly basis. Even Mickey Gilley couldn't afford his C90 in the 80s and had to scale back to a Baron.

Turbocharging, 6-cylinder engines, deice, oxygen, autopilots, King gyros all add substantially to the hourly cost and if they break, its a grand per chunk until its fixed. This board is full of owners who spend plenty the first year getting it up to snuff.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: jetdriven

Carefully conside the hourly cost of operation as well

Turbocharging, 6-cylinder engines, deice, oxygen, autopilots, King gyros all add substantially to the hourly cost and if they break, its a grand per chunk until its fixed. This board is full of owners who spend plenty the first year getting it up to snuff.

[igorbly]

Quote: johnggreen

For reliable, safe, and economical travel twice a month on your budget, the choice is simple:  Delta Airlines.

Everything else is a pipe dream.

Jgreen