Extreme cold temperature winterization

[Shiroyuki]

In the coming weeks, weather around my area is going to drop below -30 Celsius (-25F). Unfortunately I have some personal business that I need to make a few trips on these days. At my planned cruise altitude it could be as -40.

does anyone have experience or advice for operating in such cold temperatures? I’m particularly concerned about the oil temperature, would it even get into the green arc? I heard some people stick a piece of tape on the oil cooler, should i try that too? How well would the cabin heat be holding?

[mike_elliott]

The oil will coagulate at those temps and not flow. Ask me how I know. 
 

[Fritz1]

Engine Preheat is a must, seal the wemac vents on the sides real tight, you can tape over the pilot side, seal any leaks in cold air ducts on the copilot side, in the heater box on the copilot side there is a butterfly valve with pass through holes for cold air, you can tape them over for max heat, I use an alien 1500 W heater to preheat the cabin, Reiff with two pads on the oil pan and one on the oil cooler and heat bands on each cylinder, if you don't have a defrost blower use anti fog spray on inside of windshield, dress warm, I have flown the Bravo into -40C weather, but always put in heated hangar the night before and run engine and cabin heater, the defrost blower keeps the windshield clear during taxi, heat is marginal during climb but quite sufficient in cruise, I never covered the oil cooler since Bravo oil gets plenty hot, you may try covering half the oil cooler. Preheat as much as you can, that will help during taxi

[Shiroyuki]

1 hour ago, Fritz1 said:

Engine Preheat is a must, seal the wemac vents on the sides real tight, you can tape over the pilot side, seal any leaks in cold air ducts on the copilot side, in the heater box on the copilot side there is a butterfly valve with pass through holes for cold air, you can tape them over for max heat, I use an alien 1500 W heater to preheat the cabin, Reiff with two pads on the oil pan and one on the oil cooler and heat bands on each cylinder, if you don't have a defrost blower use anti fog spray on inside of windshield, dress warm, I have flown the Bravo into -40C weather, but always put in heated hangar the night before and run engine and cabin heater, the defrost blower keeps the windshield clear during taxi, heat is marginal during climb but quite sufficient in cruise, I never covered the oil cooler since Bravo oil gets plenty hot, you may try covering half the oil cooler. Preheat as much as you can, that will help during taxi

Thanks for the advice.

I have a reiff xp heater system and an engine blanket. I will plug them in 24 hour before. Unfortunately here there isn't any hangar for GA aircraft, the hangars around belong to a few air operator which I talked to and have no luck in renting a parking space.

What temperature do you see in you oil in cruise?

[Shiroyuki]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

The oil will coagulate at those temps and not flow. Ask me how I know. 
 

Is that with a cold start or in flight?

I'm currently using Phillipe XC 20w50 and will pre heat the engine before start. I'm more concerned about in flight oil temperature and cabin temp.

[bigmo]

I don’t block any part of the oil cooler for winter ops. I do hangar and preheat (oil sump pad heater). In flight, no issues maintaining normal oil temps. My heat works great in the front seats. I wound up blending a little cold air in to not cook my knee even at -30. But the back seats get COLD. My wife left a water bottle in the back that froze solid even though the front was warm.

I do have a 12v blanket we use for rear seat passengers. The only thing they complain about is their toes getting cold. 

My plane has been babied on the ground - Ive not yet had any really cold ramp nights, so no help there. The two instances where temps dropped, the FBO elected to pull it in the hangar for me while I was transient. 

[Fritz1]

At at max cruise power 78% the Bravo shows around 195 dF oil temp at -30 C ambient and below, your Reiff heater has plenty power, see if you can run another cord for a an electric cabin heater, let's say at least 1500W, then the cabin will be cosy when you get in, otherwise windows will frost over quickly on the inside from your breathing

[warren.huisman]

Make sure you have an oil cooler winterization plate or equivalent (aluminum tape works well) over the oil cooler or the engine will over heat. If the oil cooler is covered you should be fine. The cabin can get a little cold, especially for your feet as the heat comes out well behind your feet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Shiroyuki]

4 minutes ago, warren.huisman said:

Make sure you have an oil cooler winterization plate or equivalent (aluminum tape works well) over the oil cooler or the engine will over heat. If the oil cooler is covered you should be fine. The cabin can get a little cold, especially for your feet as the heat comes out well behind your feet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How big of an area should I cover？

And you're saying the engine will OVERHEAT without the tape? That's a littler counter intuitive...

[warren.huisman]

It is, but the oil congeals in the oil cooler and therefore prevents oil flow. I am saying this from experience. -25 F on the ground and the engine was over heating in flight due to this. I tape off the entire oil cooler when it is anywhere near this temp.

My experience is in a J model. I assume other models with different engines would react similarly but I have no first hand experience with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndreiC]

If your FBO has a preheater (or can put the plane in a heated hangar for an hour or two before you leave) I’d recommend that. I am not familiar with the Reiff XP, but a typical Reiff or Tanis will not be enough in temps below 20F. (When I say a preheater, I mean one of those gas burning blower devices they hook up to your air intake.) A blanket is a must. Also make sure your battery is up to it, in these temps you may get one shot only to start it. 

in my E when it was similarly cold I used aluminum tape over the oil cooler, covering about 2/3 of it. Worked well. Inside the cabin was fine (I was in the front seat, so can’t comment on back seats).

[Fritz1]

The Reiff XP with dual oil pan pads and oil cooler pad has plenty of power when used with cowl plugs and a blanket, folks use that in Alaska with good success, covering at least half of the oil cooler is probably a good idea

[Larry]

Did anyone mention a carbon monoxide detector?

[mike_elliott]

On 12/28/2024 at 4:45 PM, Shiroyuki said:

Is that with a cold start or in flight?

I'm currently using Phillipe XC 20w50 and will pre heat the engine before start. I'm more concerned about in flight oil temperature and cabin temp.

Engine on sump heater, maybe 5F outside, proper oil temp on takeoff, oil by pass opened up and oil temp registered 260, turned immediately back and before I could land it settled down, but I scrubbed until I could block off oil cooler some

IO360, F model with Ari cowl closure

 

[Slick Nick]

On 12/28/2024 at 2:45 PM, Shiroyuki said:

Is that with a cold start or in flight?

I'm currently using Phillipe XC 20w50 and will pre heat the engine before start. I'm more concerned about in flight oil temperature and cabin temp.

That oil is too thick for that temperature. Even 15-50 is outside the optimal range. Section 8 of your POH will list the proper oil grades. 20W-30 is what's recommended for below 10*F.

I fly in -30*C temps all the time. That's our best, "crisp" flying weather out here in western Canada. You will need to tape up your oil cooler. I run 2 strips of tin tape, cover HALF of the cooler (I do the bottom half) and it keeps the oil around 175*F. I've added a third strip, to cover 2/3 of the cooler before to experiment, that keeps the oil closer to 200*F which you will want if your plane has spent any time at all outdoors, but remove the last strip any time it's above about -10*C, and leave the other two in place.

My airplane is always stored in a heated hangar, so preheating is not an issue. If your plane is kept at all outside, when it's THAT cold, you could potentially end up doing hundreds of hours worth of engine wear in the first 30 seconds after startup if the engine is not thoroughly preheated. By the time you mess around with cowl blankets, plug in heaters, etc you're still only left with a lukewarm engine, frozen cabin, frosted up instruments and brittle plastics, in addition to a frost covered airplane and windshield, iced up control surfaces, etc. Don't forget that even things like the grease inside you wheel bearings and gear linkage can congeal, and put an enormous load on the gear and flap motors. Engine aside, you need to treat the rest of the airplane with care. Everything is brittle. My suggestion, just pay the fee and have it brought into a nice warm hangar the night before. Most places only charge $50 for a night.

I've got lots of hours on my Mooney flying in frozen temps, but starting off with a warm airplane is key. Airplanes absolutely love the cold air, but they hate "being" cold if that makes sense.

[Fritz1]

Absolutely agree, heated hangar the night before is best

[A64Pilot]

Lycoming recommends between 165 and 200 Indicated oil temp and says the oil in the engine is 50F warmer non turbo and 75F warmer for turbo.

How often is it that cold? I would myself if I can’t get inside and properly pre heat just not fly that day. It’s not just the engine, the plastics in the interior may crack when you bend them at that temp, rubber landing gear biscuits would be rocks I think and may crack etc.

[Justin Schmidt]

8 hours ago, Larry said:

Did anyone mention a carbon monoxide detector?

A must all year round. Even have one in my road vehicle, saved me from a bad day

[Shiroyuki]

3 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

That oil is too thick for that temperature. Even 15-50 is outside the optimal range. Section 8 of your POH will list the proper oil grades. 20W-30 is what's recommended for below 10*F.

I fly in -30*C temps all the time. That's our best, "crisp" flying weather out here in western Canada. You will need to tape up your oil cooler. I run 2 strips of tin tape, cover HALF of the cooler (I do the bottom half) and it keeps the oil around 175*F. I've added a third strip, to cover 2/3 of the cooler before to experiment, that keeps the oil closer to 200*F which you will want if your plane has spent any time at all outdoors, but remove the last strip any time it's above about -10*C, and leave the other two in place.

My airplane is always stored in a heated hangar, so preheating is not an issue. If your plane is kept at all outside, when it's THAT cold, you could potentially end up doing hundreds of hours worth of engine wear in the first 30 seconds after startup if the engine is not thoroughly preheated. By the time you mess around with cowl blankets, plug in heaters, etc you're still only left with a lukewarm engine, frozen cabin, frosted up instruments and brittle plastics, in addition to a frost covered airplane and windshield, iced up control surfaces, etc. Don't forget that even things like the grease inside you wheel bearings and gear linkage can congeal, and put an enormous load on the gear and flap motors. Engine aside, you need to treat the rest of the airplane with care. Everything is brittle. My suggestion, just pay the fee and have it brought into a nice warm hangar the night before. Most places only charge $50 for a night.

I've got lots of hours on my Mooney flying in frozen temps, but starting off with a warm airplane is key. Airplanes absolutely love the cold air, but they hate "being" cold if that makes sense.

Thanks

i will tape of half of my cooler and see how well does that work.

I’ve mentioned it in previous thread but I’m going to type it again. There is no available GA hanager at my base, only a few airlines with their own big hangar. I’ve talked to all of and trying to see if I can rent a hangar space, and the answer was no. NWO is basically a void for general aviation. No repair faculty unless you’re a float plane, and no hangar space available, no flight club, not Even FBO at many airplane. 

My company have to park some of our plane outside, companies next door have planes parked all over the apron. Even for the airline here, they don’t have enough hangar space for their own plane.

 

[Shiroyuki]

8 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

Thanks

i will tape of half of my cooler and see how well does that work.

I’ve mentioned it in previous thread but I’m going to type it again. There is no available GA hanager at my base, only a few airlines with their own big hangar. I’ve talked to all of and trying to see if I can rent a hangar space, and the answer was no. NWO is basically a void for general aviation. No repair faculty unless you’re a float plane, and no hangar space available, no flight club, not Even FBO at many airplane. 

My company have to park some of our plane outside, companies next door have planes parked all over the apron. Even for the airline here, they don’t have enough hangar space for their own plane.

 

To add, beside the reiff Xp system, i have another 1500w buddy heater which i stucked under the cowl open to provide additional heat.

i do have a digital carbon monoxide detector from aircraft spruce in my plane too. It came factory calibrated and im pretty happy with how well it worked.

[bigmo]

2 hours ago, Justin Schmidt said:

A must all year round. Even have one in my road vehicle, saved me from a bad day

Not to take the thread away from cold weather ops, but there’s a thread here on cigarette USB adapters with CO warning built in. It has an audible alarm you can hear with the engine at cruise and seems to read very accurately. Ive used the stick ons for years, but added this as a secondary immediate warning. A really great low cost option.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, bigmo said:

Not to take the thread away from cold weather ops, but there’s a thread here on cigarette USB adapters with CO warning built in. It has an audible alarm you can hear with the engine at cruise and seems to read very accurately. Ive used the stick ons for years, but added this as a secondary immediate warning. A really great low cost option.

If by Stick Ons you mean the Dead Spot, stop wasting your money.

 

[Slick Nick]

16 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

Thanks

i will tape of half of my cooler and see how well does that work.

I’ve mentioned it in previous thread but I’m going to type it again. There is no available GA hanager at my base, only a few airlines with their own big hangar. I’ve talked to all of and trying to see if I can rent a hangar space, and the answer was no. NWO is basically a void for general aviation. No repair faculty unless you’re a float plane, and no hangar space available, no flight club, not Even FBO at many airplane. 

My company have to park some of our plane outside, companies next door have planes parked all over the apron. Even for the airline here, they don’t have enough hangar space for their own plane.

 

I guess in that case, you’ll need to do a really thorough preheat on the engine, ideally starting the night before. Have you got cowl blankets and stuff? Also try to preheat the interior to protect your avionics, plastics, etc. Ground lean the engine out after start and get it as hot as you possibly can before run up and subsequent application of takeoff power. You should see an initial rise in oil temp, then a drop as the vernatherm opens and allows cold oil to circulate back into the engine and through the cooler, then another rise in temperature which would indicate all of the oil is now flowing properly through the engine. Once the oil is hot cycle the prop a few times and observe the oil pressure drop and rise, too high of oil pressure is just as bad as not enough. You can blow out your oil filter and engine seals. If the battery is in good condition, it should be able to start the engine no problem, maybe give it an 8-10 second prime. Oil pressure with that thick of oil may be very slow to rise on startup, so keep an eye on it. If you don’t see any within 15-20 seconds, shut it down. The book says 30, but I always thought that was way too long. 
 

Once she’s hotted up and you’re airborne, you’ll want to lean in the climb and aggressively in cruise to keep the temps up. Running too rich in the winter keeps the engine too cold and can lead to a lot of corrosion inside. Enjoy the crisp, cold air!

[Slick Nick]

56 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

If by Stick Ons you mean the Dead Spot, stop wasting your money.

 

I always wondered if those things even worked. I just picked me up the new Lightspeed headset with the built in detector. 

[bigmo]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

If by Stick Ons you mean the Dead Spot, stop wasting your money.

 

I think you’re spot on. They probably work long after you go unconscious. The cigarette version is loud enough to stir the dead.