70 E model, value and honest speed?

[davewilson]

I am interested in purchasing a friends project mooney. I have owned a beech18 for many years and cannot afford to fly it anymore! With 400 gallon tanks, it will burn mogas, but at 45 gallons an hour, hauling up to 8 passengers or 12 skydivers, it is just not a very efficient airplane.

Many years ago, I introduced a fellow mechanic friend to aviation. I owned a 182, he was into fast cars, a nova and corvette. I took him for a ride and he was hooked. He bought a 69 mooney ranger, my 182 would slowly pass him up. About a year later, he had purchased a 201 firewall forward that had been damaged by a tornado. He got a 1 time field approval, and swapped the 201 goodies onto his ranger. He added ALL the speed mods to that ranger. He took great pride in passing me up, I'm guessing he was doing close to 200 mph, as I was at 150!

He has owned another mooney, an E model, but has been into car racing and other projects. He never completed the airplane, and is giving up flying for other interests. His E model has the 200 hp injected engine, 0 smoh by a local guy with a good rep., about 12 yrs ago. Engine has never run. Prop done 12 yrs ago, never run and needs 5 yr inspection. He purchased a full stack of king brand new dual kx155 stack, never used, about 12 years ago, that was 13K, already mounted in a custom panel. He has installed all the speed mods, but the fuel tanks need resealing. I am interested in long range fuel, found out the total price would be about 13K to have the long range tanks installed and mains resealed, ouch! Plane is currently disassembled. Any ideas what this plane might be worth now and after I have put it back together? I would rather have a garmin 430, as I had a garmin 250 GPS com in the beech18, loved it.  What could I expect for real world speeds and fuel burn. Was told by owner about 195 mph at 10 gallons an hour?

[scottfromiowa]

Speed and "honest speed".  So many variables...I have a '66 M20E with 201 windshield, cowl closure three blade prop.  Flying 10 GPH...which I will do sometimes, but commonly fly LOP at 9.5GPH my bird is a 130-145knots ground speed on GPS.  I don't know what his fuel burn was in your first paragraph "I'm guessing he was doing close to 200MPH"...It can be done but NOT in my plane at 10GPH with no wind or a quartering headwind or headwind.  In level flight I will see 200MPH when I have a slight favoring wind...If you put the weight of long range tanks full of fuel this will be a speed penalty in addition to whatever passengers/cargo you have aboard.  As far as value, was/is the engine pickled for long term storage?  IF no it is a big unknown and likely seals will have suffered or other issues.  The cost to "get in shape"/assemble are large.  I would NOT pay over $40k for this bird...Good luck,

Scott

[Lood]

195 = 170 kts; I doubt it? Most standard E models will cruise somewhere around 150 -155 kts and if equipped with particular 201 mods that do indeed increase speed, it might probably get to 160 - 165 kt, but no more. 10 gallons per hour is correct for an IO360 A1A at ROP settings.

[flight2000]

Quote: davewilson

What could I expect for real world speeds and fuel burn. Was told by owner about 195 mph at 10 gallons an hour?

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: flight2000

Hi Dave,

Only time I've seen that kind of speed was coming home from Denver to Kansas City with a 55 knot tail wind (ground speed registered 212 knots on the 430W that day).  Otherwise, I agree with the others that most E's will be an honest 145-157 KTAS depending on how you run the engine. 

I have no idea what the value would be other than something your comfortable with, especially with the costs associated with getting it back into airworthy condition.  I'd want everything looked at since it's been grounded for that length of time. 

Brian 

 

[N601RX]

Unless the engine was pickled and perserved, it may not even be worth core value.  That is the position I would take unless he wanted to remove a couple of cylinders and prove otherwise.

The best way I know to come up with a price for it in its current condition would be to find a similiar equip one for sale online and then try to work backwards to determine the cost of getting the plane put back together and airworthy.  The engine would be my biggest question assumming the airframe was ok.  Also be sure he has the paperwork for all the mods he has installed.

 

 

[KSMooniac]

I agree with the above comments about TAS.  You'll be in the 145-155 KTAS at 7000-9000 ft, depending on how you run the engine.  Fuel flow would be in the range of 8.5-10.5 GPH for those speeds.

Regarding value, there is not enough information given to accurately guess.  Presumably all of the parts are there to re-assemble.  Hopefully the engine was pickled and stored well, otherwise it might be worth core value only.  A cylinder or two should most definitely be removed to check the cam and crank condition, which should be easy if it is not installed.  The prop also might have little value if it is the Hartzell prop with the recurring AD.  No mention of which speed mods.  No mention of paint or interior condition.  New KX155 radios today would just make me shrug.  I supposed they're better than clapped-out Narcos, but they aren't helping the value IMO.  If they're not installed, I'd try to sell them to someone that needs a good replacement and then go get a 430W at a minimum, or better yet the new Avidyne 540.

If the wing is off, this *could* work to your advantage to re-seal the tanks.  If you're a DIY-er, you could consider building a rotisserie at a good working height and getting after it.  There are modern chemicals that making old sealant removal MUCH easier, without mechanical scraping.  If you have it at a nice height and can rotate it around, I think it would be much easier to apply the new sealant instead of fighting the constraints of the as-installed position.  Check out http://www.weepnomorellc.com/ for the expert service... I believe he can be persuaded to travel to your location, and perhaps work out a better price if the wing is off, but I have no idea.  Just thinking out loud.

IMO, a freshly restored E with an IFR GPS, new paint, interior, tanks, engine, etc. should easily fetch somewhere in the $60-70k range for the right buyer looking for a turn-key plane.  Well-used ones are in the $45-50k range today.  Much above that, it would be too easy to get tempted to just get a used J.  If you are simply looking for an economical 2+2 personal plane that you plan to enjoy for many years, then I would say the as-finished value is of secondary concern and I would encourage you to make it however nice you can within whatever budget you might have.  If you are doing it as a labor of love (and hobby) instead of paying someone to do the work, then you could come out alright in the end if you don't value your labor time.

[davewilson]

Scott from iowa, scott from wichita, lood from s. Africa, mike, brian, and others who may reply, thanks for taking the time to respond. This is a great source for info.

I have spent hundreds of hours on the www.beechtalk site, great entertainment and info. Tough economic times are forcing many seasoned pilots to quit, sell out, or find something cheaper to fly. Sadley prices have plummeted on the twin market. There are outstanding deals on beechcraft barons, even bonanzas are steeply discounted. There are some hi rollers that wouldnt flinch at 10 dollar a gallon av gas!  If I lived in venezuela, I could easily afford a DC3..., 35 cents a gallon. Fuel prices elsewhere around the world, europe and australia are 8 to 10 a gallon. Sri Lanka is 13!  Lood, what is 100LL going for in africa?

 I  need an economical, tough, reliable, cross country bird. With speed mods, this E model is faster, and uses less fuel than any cessna, beech or piper! I just saw the pic of 30 people sitting/standing on top of those wings, amazing. I am a do it yourselfer, so I save bundles. I spent a month resealing 330 gallon wet wings on an 18, what a dirty hallucinatory job!!! How else could I have afforded a beech18. Always flew barefoot, no insurance, no bank loans.

The mooney that I am considering is stored in the los angeles area, 50 miles away from the coast, clean dry air. Cars last forever here if maintained. Not sure the extent of the pickleization of the engine, but common sense would say that all internal parts would be coated in oil. I know it is a crap shoot. I am negotiating around 25K. How could a zero time prop, done 12 yrs ago, still in it's wrapper, deteriorate. Out of date on paper, unairworthy. It has no sign offs on speed mods, not a deal breaker for me. So, a new stack of king radios are now boat anchors/ obsolete?  It has new paint, all white, no stripes.

 

[N601RX]

Quote: davewilson

Scott from iowa, scott from wichita, lood from s. Africa, mike, brian, and others who may reply, thanks for taking the time to respond. This is a great source for info.

I have spent hundreds of hours on the www.beechtalk site, great entertainment and info. Tough economic times are forcing many seasoned pilots to quit, sell out, or find something cheaper to fly. Sadley prices have plummeted on the twin market. There are outstanding deals on beechcraft barons, even bonanzas are steeply discounted. There are some hi rollers that wouldnt flinch at 10 dollar a gallon av gas!  If I lived in venezuela, I could easily afford a DC3..., 35 cents a gallon. Fuel prices elsewhere around the world, europe and australia are 8 to 10 a gallon. Sri Lanka is 13!  Lood, what is 100LL going for in africa?

 I  need an economical, tough, reliable, cross country bird. With speed mods, this E model is faster, and uses less fuel than any cessna, beech or piper! I just saw the pic of 30 people sitting/standing on top of those wings, amazing. I am a do it yourselfer, so I save bundles. I spent a month resealing 330 gallon wet wings on an 18, what a dirty hallucinatory job!!! How else could I have afforded a beech18. Always flew barefoot, no insurance, no bank loans.

The mooney that I am considering is stored in the los angeles area, 50 miles away from the coast, clean dry air. Cars last forever here if maintained. Not sure the extent of the pickleization of the engine, but common sense would say that all internal parts would be coated in oil. I know it is a crap shoot. I am negotiating around 25K. How could a zero time prop, done 12 yrs ago, still in it's wrapper, deteriorate. Out of date on paper, unairworthy. It has no sign offs on speed mods, not a deal breaker for me. So, a new stack of king radios are now boat anchors/ obsolete?  It has new paint, all white, no stripes.

 

[Guest]

Heck at that price I'd jump on it, you'd know that plane inside and out done your way. 

[KSMooniac]

At 25k, I'd still pull at least one cylinder (is the engine fully installed and baffled, or sitting in a crate?) to check the cam and crank condition for rust.  Presuming there is no rust there, then I think you would have a solid buy since you a DIY-er!  It sounds like you would keep and enjoy this one for many years, so the "cost" of your labor making it airworthy is only a minor concern.  I don't know anything about Beech 18 tanks, but if you did that job you could very likely handle the Mooney tanks yourself as well.  

What is the current state of assembly/disassembly?  Is the panel "finished" with those KX-155s and all of the gyros installed?  Engine?  How are the windows?  Interior?  etc.  Is there an autopilot or the Mooney PC system installed?

It sounds like a worthy project for you, and you won't find a more economical XC traveling machine than a Mooney, and especially an E model.  They make great IFR machines and the airframes are incredibly tough.  The systems are simple.  Hard to beat!

[davewilson]

I have not seen the plane for 6 years. Not sure about hydrator plugs.  It may be missing a few items, only a detailed inventory check would reveal that. Windscreen is new. I  recall a beautiful job he did on the custom panel, all radios, trays and other goodies installed. Like a car, if it does not run, missing parts, paperwork, log entries, needing AD's complied with, out of annual, project/basketcase, that hurts the value alot. If a pro nit picked, they might charge to haul it away!

Factory Beech18's used aluminum tanks, and  bladders. Any wet wing was a non factory mod.   Some smuggler 18's had 750 gallon wet wings, 16 hr range, US to  Columbia non stoop. Bladders, aluminum tanks and wet wings. The job we did back at lantana airport florida, immediately following 9-11, was on a tricycle gear, nose dragger,  200 gallon aluminum tanks had been removed, and  wet wings, increasing capacity to 330 gallons. The PRC sealant was over 20 yrs old, it had turned mushy like icing on a chocolate cake. It would have been easier to remove the wings, install them in a rotating jig, like a bar b que rotissieri.  Add about 40 gallons of a special flesh eating chemical paint remover. We used a mechanical means of scraping with a plastic tool and TOLUENE! I got stoned every day smelling those fumes. I even tried using a snorkel type tube set up to breath fresh air. To this day I am somewhat punch drunk from that job. The mooney has new paint on the wings, using any kind of chemical remover from the inside of the wing may leak thru affecting the paint? The beech reseal was big but easier as you could climb into the wing thru large inspection covers. The mooney means using mirrors and long arms to reach blind spots etc.

Getting into a project like this can go on and on. Even an airplane that is completely together and flown recently can have a squawk list a mile long of necessary repairs. Flippers would part it out to make a quick profit and split. That is not my intention.

[jetdriven]

Sounds like you and 900TL (M20E in the weeds) need to get togther and make two airplanes into one.

[Lood]

davewilson, Avgas here in SA goes for around $8/gal when converted and this includes VAT. Not really cheap, but then Mogas currently sells for $6/gal, which is not much cheaper when taking into account that I can claim VAT back on Avgas. The station where I fill my Agas drums charges $7/gal. So after the 14% VAT back, it costs the same as Mogas.

[KSMooniac]

The chemical process linked in my post above *generally* does little to no harm to paint, but it depends on the condition of the paint primarily.  If it is old paint and the tanks have leaked a bunch in the past, then it is liable to already be damaged in the leak areas.  The biggest risk is the sealed access panels on the bottom of the wing since you'll have to open those to get to the tanks, which might damage the paint locally.  I don't think you would have any wide-spread damage, and certainly not on the top of the wing.  You should call Paul (the company/process owner) and chat him up.

It sounds like a worthy project and I wish you the best of luck getting her back in the air!

[Jeff_S]

Quote: N601RX

Unless the engine was pickled and perserved, it may not even be worth core value.  That is the position I would take unless he wanted to remove a couple of cylinders and prove otherwise.

[DaV8or]

Sorry Jeff,

The above post was actually me. Forgot to check my log in. Took three tries to actually log in as me. Kind of like musical user accounts.