ORDERED A FACTORY NEW REBUILD FROM LYCOMMING 10 MONTHS AGO. NOW THEY TELL ME I HAVE TO WAIT 13 MORE MONTHS.

[philiplane]

On 8/17/2024 at 10:55 PM, Will.iam said:

Why can’t one of the largest engine stock facilities be in a dry climate like Arizona instead of the highest corrosion state of Florida. Just seems like asking for trouble. 

Do you know that the engines come preserved from the factory, with desiccant bags and desiccant plugs in the cylinders? And they have air conditioned parts storage...Wow, who would have thought that a shop in Florida might have air conditioned parts storage?

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

They are still rushing around here. Lots of people renting in FL to rack up hours faster than the flight instructor/banner towing/etc routes. Some of these people are flying 8 hours a day, as if it was a job, to get to the magic number. I don't remember seeing people do that prior to the rule change but it could just be more apparent today.

The flight schools have grown at every airport, and they have grown substantially. There are also multiple operators selling block time that is measured in hundreds of hours.

The problem is, the slow down trickles down.  The majors slow down.  So the regionals can keep people so they slow down.  But the students are cranking along, until they get their magical 1500 hours, and the hiring standards have gone up.

And do you think the flight schools would tell their students?????  NO WAY.

[cliffy]

Yes but no block time like I had in 1963   10 hours of Cessna 150 time WITH FUEL INCLUDED was $90  USD  :-)

[Schllc]

I honestly don’t understand how any mechanical manufacturing business can function with a 2 year lead time. 
This has to be intentional, they are preparing for a batch run, and long lead times probably induces a lot of people to order early. 
this would make a little sense if the product was complex to create, but we are talking about a 1930’s technology engine, and they are charging $100k
The onerously strict rules for aircraft power plants has created a defacto monopoly. 

[cliffy]

As Walter Cronkite used to say (if any of you are old enough to remember him:-)   -

"And that's the way it is"

[PMcClure]

I am hopefully nearing the end of my IO-550 engine replacement. Air Power and TCM weren't much better. Took nearly 4 months just to get the quote for the engine I needed, then 6 months for the engine, then they shipped an engine that still required some minor changes to work. And they were phasing out several specs of engines. They couldn't sell me a new engine, only reman; even though they said they were building it new. Dozens of calls, emails and texts went unanswered and I was totally in the dark after making the downpayment until the day it shipped. 

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, cliffy said:

Yes but no block time like I had in 1963   10 hours of Cessna 150 time WITH FUEL INCLUDED was $90  USD  :-)

Beat me by $10.  At about the same time, I was getting a ten-hour block for $100. My total spend for all the flying I could stand was $10 per hour.  No hangar, no insurance (never occurred to me), no maintenance, no BFR.  Ahh, those were the days. 

[MikeOH]

13 hours ago, cliffy said:

Yes but no block time like I had in 1963   10 hours of Cessna 150 time WITH FUEL INCLUDED was $90  USD  :-)

HAH!  You've got me beat!  I paid $105 with fuel for 10 hours in 1977.  CFI was $5/hour.  However, I was only making $2.50/hour at the time.

[natdm]

13 hours ago, cliffy said:

Yes but no block time like I had in 1963   10 hours of Cessna 150 time WITH FUEL INCLUDED was $90  USD  :-)

I had a piper 160 at $85 wet for my PPL (2021). Even came with a partial power plant failure training session. 
 

You can still find cheap here. You just.. get what you pay for, and it’s a lot less now!

[Beau]

On 8/17/2024 at 4:15 PM, alextstone said:

Are you referring to the engine for the Bravo, the TIO-540-af1b?  

Yes the engine is a TIO -540-af1b. My appologies for the late reponse. 

[FoxMike]

I checked the price of a TIO 540 AF1B from Air Power.  A new one is $175,000 and the rebuilt/overhaul are over $100K.  Not too long ago a new engine was around $100K.  I guess the reason for the lack of available engines is that Textron is giving purchasers a little time to save up.  I wonder how full Textron order book is given the pricing.  The overhaul shops are likely jumping for joy.  

[MikeOH]

On 8/21/2024 at 10:34 AM, natdm said:

I had a piper 160 at $85 wet for my PPL (2021). Even came with a partial power plant failure training session. 
 

You can still find cheap here. You just.. get what you pay for, and it’s a lot less now!

@natdm

I just saw this...you do realize that @cliffy's $90 was for 10 HOURS of wet rental, as in $9/hr....

[cliffy]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@natdm

I just saw this...you do realize that @cliffy's $90 was for 10 HOURS of wet rental, as in $9/hr....

YUP!

[natdm]

4 hours ago, MikeOH said:

@natdm

I just saw this...you do realize that @cliffy's $90 was for 10 HOURS of wet rental, as in $9/hr....

Jesus. 

[exM20K]

11 hours ago, FoxMike said:

I checked the price of a TIO 540 AF1B from Air Power.  A new one is $175,000 and the rebuilt/overhaul are over $100K.  Not too long ago a new engine was around $100K.  I guess the reason for the lack of available engines is that Textron is giving purchasers a little time to save up.  I wonder how full Textron order book is given the pricing.  The overhaul shops are likely jumping for joy.  

I wouldn’t count on that.  The kits that the field overhaul shops use are coming from the factory, and at least in the CMI world, the factory was pricing their overhaul at or under an apples-to-apples field overhaul for at least the last 5 -10 years.  My TSIO550 is also > $100,000. It has two turbos which are now $6500 each overhaul/exchange, and likely more than that new.

this pricing creates a strong incentive to run way past TBO. If the invoice for an installed engine is $130,000, and given my cost of funds at 9%, every year I can put off the overhaul saves or earns me almost $12,000.  That buys a lot of repairs.

-dan

[Bart Chilcott]

I used Barret Precision Engines in Tulsa Oklahoma for my I0 360.  They were able to acquire NEW Lycoming pistons sets for me in 8 months where other shops were quoting two years.  Very happy with their communication and quality of work.  Ask for Rhonda.

[A64Pilot]

On 9/7/2024 at 10:52 AM, exM20K said:

I wouldn’t count on that.  The kits that the field overhaul shops use are coming from the factory, and at least in the CMI world, the factory was pricing their overhaul at or under an apples-to-apples field overhaul for at least the last 5 -10 years.  My TSIO550 is also > $100,000. It has two turbos which are now $6500 each overhaul/exchange, and likely more than that new.

this pricing creates a strong incentive to run way past TBO. If the invoice for an installed engine is $130,000, and given my cost of funds at 9%, every year I can put off the overhaul saves or earns me almost $12,000.  That buys a lot of repairs.

-dan

Factories jacked the parts price years ago, in order to stay in business, they sort of shifted from new production to overhauls after the new airplane builds dried up.

After a few years the high prices jump started the PMA parts business and there were several different sources of cylinders etc because of course the profit was good and I assume but don’t know that the AD’s and other problems that popped up killed the PMA parts?

In truth I don’t know why they dried up, does anyone? It would seem the shortage of angle valve cylinders etc would be a source of profit? As has been pointed out these things aren’t space shuttle parts, maybe the volume doesn’t interest China? 

As far as running past TBO, your allowed of course and I don’t believe that there is any substantiating data that shows it’s unsafe to do so.

However it’s been my experience as a mechanic that especially a first run engine can be overhauled with only the purchase of the wear items, as in bearings etc.

However if you run one until it starts making metal, most often everything is trashed and I mean everything. Your better off buying a zero time new engine.

A large reason for at least Lycomings shortages during and just after the pandemic was RV builders were buying like it was a fire sale, but surely that’s no longer the case? And surely Lycoming makes more money from Certified than Experimental engines?

I think these prices may be the coffin nail in a lot of older aircraft, will many pay more for an engine than the aircraft is worth?

[cliffy]

In the future I see lots of "field overhauls" done to "overhaul fits" instead of "new fits" and the use of ground crankshafts (you can go .010 under in most cases_ and still meet "overhaul" standards, Same with piston fits, cylinder  bores, ground cams and lifters. It all can be done legally and safely or it wouldn't be in the Lycoming manual. There is no reason why a field overhaul done overhaul limits shouldn't perform just as good a a new engine.

It all depends on who does it. 

I also see a market in hoarding "used" engine parts and pieces as the supply of NEW dries up.