Autopilot or Paint?

[MikeOH]

Maybe I just don't understand your 'mission' here.  I just re-read your original post.  Seems your decision is predicated on 'value at resale'.  Have you really spent all that money (factory NEW IO550), interior, etc. just to resell???  I don't see how you're going to come out anywhere close to getting your money back.

It seems you have the money to do it all, so what's stopping you from a full custom repaint, GFC500, and getting the tanks resealed?  As you say, 'makes everything else look like it needs attention'.

Back to your original question: you already have a functioning AP, so I'd say a flashy, nice custom paint job would be most valuable at resale.

[William Munney]

10 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Leak? Or, seep, or weep?  (See MM definitions).  I've had a couple of weeps over the past 7 years; easily patched for very minimal dollars.  Way preferable to $16,000 and downtime.  Just something to consider.

According to the maintainer…..they are getting close to needing redone.  Also, I just redid the interior and don’t want fuel in there.

[William Munney]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

Maybe I just don't understand your 'mission' here.  I just re-read your original post.  Seems your decision is predicated on 'value at resale'.  Have you really spent all that money (factory NEW IO550), interior, etc. just to resell???  I don't see how you're going to come out anywhere close to getting your money back.

It seems you have the money to do it all, so what's stopping you from a full custom repaint, GFC500, and getting the tanks resealed?  As you say, 'makes everything else look like it needs attention'.

Back to your original question: you already have a functioning AP, so I'd say a flashy, nice custom paint job would be most valuable at resale.

Ok.  Here is the whole enchilada.

My original intent was to buy a “ buy it and drive it” Ovation or something similar but I ended up purchasing a “fixer upper” which is another story.  And, I don’t mind a project.   I did the math before I bought it and I will be OK when I sell it.  So far.  Someone is going to get a solid, good looking, modernized airplane with a great panel, a very sharp interior, and a factory new motor etc….  And FIKI!  But, at some point, the resale price would not support the money spent to do “everything”.

Why I bought it:

I am currently flying it all over the country with my son, who is in a university aviation program, so we can see the country together and he can get VFR and IFR experience outside his home airport environment.  It’s a narrow window for us to make this happen.  A couple of years.  After that, I am not sure I will keep it.  We’ll see.  Right now, I sure am having fun flying VFR and in the low IFR environment again and he is learning real travel in an airplane in all the weather over large distances.

I completely went through all the aircraft systems ( firewall forward etc……) because my son and I are in there traveling through all kinds of weather together and he will be on the insurance this Fall flying solo.  Things happen in aviation, as you all know, and I just couldn’t live with myself if I had cut corners anywhere and something happened as a result.

The panel had been done before I bought it.  Very capable Garmin IFR.  All glass. Very clean. No vacuum. G500 TXi, GTN 750 WAAS, GNS 530 WAAS, Sirius XM weather, USB ports, remote G345 transponder and audio panel.  So, good there.

The airplane interior really only needed carpet badly.  But, to get to the carpet I had to remove the seats.  Once I had the seats and the carpet out….i just kept going.  It’s all wool and leather now.

Finally, to answer your mission question, I am making improvements to build a safe,  nice looking, all-weather traveler while keeping an eye to resale.  I didn’t want to blindly throw money anywhere so I am seeking advice from you all.  I currently have room in the budget for tank reseal and AP or paint.  But not both.  And, I don’t want to just give things away at resale.  I think everyone understands that.

Thanks again all.

[William Munney]

After too much coffee, it went from perfectly flyable to this.   Carpet was bad.  Seats were meh.  And, it smelled from sitting mostly unused.

[William Munney]

After about 20 hours with the buffer and some aggressive paste.

[William Munney]

Current panel.

[William Munney]

Interior.  It’s easier taking it out than putting it all in somehow.

[William Munney]

Old air intake now rebuilt with some carbon fiber.  Spinner was originally painted white….picture is after several hours on a lathe.  Factory new Continental IO 550.  2200 hours TBO and 3 year warranty.  (Could be two years… can’t remember)

[William Munney]

New IO 550.  Painted baffles. Rebuilt air intake.  Exhaust is completely overhauled as well.  Firewall forward….. all new.

[BlueSky247]

Based on your mission goals, I’d get the gfc500. If the panel supports it, having that smart glide button would be a nice insurance measure. 

[William Munney]

Finally.  I would like to thank and to highly recommend Jason Doscher at Jed-Aire Aviation for his help and experience with this project.  He is located in Benson , MN (KBBB).  He owns the business and answers his own phones.  Drop in for decades of Mooney experience and honest work and opinions.  Normally I would keep this to myself but he is honestly an asset to anyone flying a Mooney……or anything else actually.  I have seen a wide variety of flying machines in his hangar.

[William Munney]

9 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

Based on your mission goals, I’d get the gfc500. If the panel supports it, having that smart glide button would be a nice insurance measure. 

I think that is a GTN750 TXi function.  Mine is GTN 750.  ForeFlight has a nice glide ring anyway.  I like the GFC for auto activation if flight parameters are exceeded.  “Level” function.  And VNAV for STARs.  It’s a great autopilot but has had some problems in some long body Mooneys and I’m not sure if those are fixed.

I think at resale time some buyers might like the KFC-150 and new paint and others might value the function of the GFC 500 over the paint.  I was thinking there might be a definite preference on this site for one over the other but it doesn’t seem that way.

[donkaye]

The KFC 150 was a great AP, but the GFC 500 is on another level; ESP, LVL, VNAV, Smart Glide (needs GTN 750Xi), YD.  Paint vs the GFC 500--a no brainer for me--the GFC 500.  A servo WILL fail on the KFC 500, the plane will be down, good money down  the drain to repair.  With a working system you should be able to recover over 5K from the sale of the components of the KFC 150 to help with the cost of the new AP.

[BlueSky247]

The G500 Txi the OP has supports Smart Glide, according to Garmin. Might need a software update, but it’s on the list. 

[William Munney]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

The KFC 150 was a great AP, but the GFC 500 is on another level; ESP, LVL, VNAV, Smart Glide (needs GTN 750Xi), YD.  Paint vs the GFC 500--a no brainer for me--the GFC 500.  A servo WILL fail on the KFC 500, the plane will be down, good money down  the drain to repair.  With a working system you should be able to recover over 5K from the sale of the components of the KFC 150 to help with the cost of the new AP.

Thanks Don.  I didn’t think about selling back the KFC.  The maintainer says same thing…..GFC 500.  Says it’s better for resale than 28 year old paint?  I have seen waaaaaaaay worse paint in GA than mine but??

Edited July 28 by William Munney

[William Munney]

59 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

The G500 Txi the OP has supports Smart Glide, according to Garmin. Might need a software update, but it’s on the list. 

Avionics people say I need an SI 275 (or G5) to run the GFC500.  So add that in.  The G500 TXi supports smart glide but I think the math all come from the GTN 750 TXi.   Mine is a GTN…non TXi.

While we are on we this, does anyone know how to get the green descent arc on the G500?  Maybe a new topic for sure.

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, William Munney said:

Thanks Don.  I didn’t think about selling back the KFC.  The maintainer says same thing…..GFC 500.  Says it’s better for resale than 28 year old paint?  I have seen waaaaaaaay worse paint in GA than mine but??

What about do the GFC 500 and then pay for a quality touch up job at some point?

The paint in those photos doesn’t look all that bad.

For my J I picked a GFC 500 over paint and interior and I don’t regret a single second of it.

[William Munney]

27 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

What about do the GFC 500 and then pay for a quality touch up job at some point?

The paint in those photos doesn’t look all that bad.

For my J I picked a GFC 500 over paint and interior and I don’t regret a single second of it.

That’s what I hear from everyone with a GFC 500.  I did have one avionics shop recently advise me to wait on the GFC 500 because there have been instances of pitch excursions on long body Mooney’s.  He says Garmin knows about it and has at least two test planes down there.

The paint looks better in pictures.  Again, it’s not terrible for GA but it’s 28 years old.  Some scratches around the cowling and a few other places and some faded Claret.  All the systems are 100% solid though.

[ArtVandelay]

Before you upgrade to a GFC 500, make sure you elevators work smoothly, I had mine checked and lubed during my annual. The servos aren’t too strong and can’t overcome any resistance or sticking.

[Danb]

Tough decision although devils advocate will appear just after you pick up your beautiful plane, the A/P will bite the bullet. Stay away from the window we continue to throw our money through you’d hate to fall out.

D

[LANCECASPER]

22 hours ago, William Munney said:

I am currently flying it all over the country with my son, who is in a university aviation program, so we can see the country together and he can get VFR and IFR experience outside his home airport environment.  It’s a narrow window for us to make this happen.  A couple of years.  After that, I am not sure I will keep it.  We’ll see.  Right now, I sure am having fun flying VFR and in the low IFR environment again and he is learning real travel in an airplane in all the weather over large distances.

I hope your son has had the advantage of helping out on this project to see how much work goes into this and how satisfying it is to see the results of hard work.

[William Munney]

17 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I hope your son has had the advantage of helping out on this project to see how much work goes into this and how satisfying it is to see the results of hard work.

Well.  Yes and no Lance.  But, I see what you are getting at.  And, I don’t care for spoiled, entitled children.

He has been in school through the Fall (when I bought the airplane) and Winter (when the majority of the work was done).  He helped when he could driving home from school and then the additional 2.5 hours to the maintenance facility where all the work was done.  He is working on his pilot ratings and an engineering degree so he’s got a lot of his own work to do.  And, honestly, that is his main job right now.

The large refurbishment project on the Ovation was my responsibility and the timing was dictated by the aircraft purchase date and the lead time on the new engine.  My goal here was to build the safest, up to date, all- weather traveler I could afford….. not to spoil anyone.  Owners can only do so much anyway.  Jason Doscher at Jed-Aire did all of the work required by an AP.

He has done much more work this summer despite taking classes and flying at school all summer.  We are both learning to do all the required maintenance that we are allowed to do.  

He’s a great kid and truly appreciative of this opportunity…..or I would not have started it.

Also, I have learned as much from him as he may have from me.  It’s been awhile since I have done VFR flying and been in the low altitude IFR environment.  He is currently working on Commercial, Multi, CFI so I am getting plenty of questions answered.  Finally, I cannot convey how satisfying it has been to travel with him all over the country sharing this together.  It’s a narrow window for this for us.  The engine break in was done by the book and the airplane has been trouble free thus far.

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, William Munney said:

Well.  Yes and no Lance.  But, I see what you are getting at.  And, I don’t care for spoiled, entitled children.

He has been in school through the Fall (when I bought the airplane) and Winter (when the majority of the work was done).  He helped when he could driving home from school and then the additional 2.5 hours to the maintenance facility where all the work was done.  He is working on his pilot ratings and an engineering degree so he’s got a lot of his own work to do.  And, honestly, that is his main job right now.

The large refurbishment project on the Ovation was my responsibility and the timing was dictated by the aircraft purchase date and the lead time on the new engine.  My goal here was to build the safest, up to date, all- weather traveler I could afford….. not to spoil anyone.  Owners can only do so much anyway.  Jason Doscher at Jed-Aire did all of the work required by an AP.

He has done much more work this summer despite taking classes and flying at school all summer.  We are both learning to do all the required maintenance that we are allowed to do.  

He’s a great kid and truly appreciative of this opportunity…..or I would not have started it.

Also, I have learned as much from him as he may have from me.  It’s been awhile since I have done VFR flying and been in the low altitude IFR environment.  He is currently working on Commercial, Multi, CFI so I am getting plenty of questions answered.  Finally, I cannot convey how satisfying it has been to travel with him all over the country sharing this together.  It’s a narrow window for this for us.  The engine break in was done by the book and the airplane has been trouble free thus far.

Sorry if it came across that I was saying that he was spoiled or entitled. I didn't mean to imply that at all, but in re-reading my post I can see how it could be taken that way. He is very fortunate to have you and I'm sure he appreciates everything you're doing. What an opportunity to observe how to take on a project and stick with it to completion. Also in flying to these places what a great way to spend time together. You will both look back and remember these times for years to come. Best wishes in both of your endeavors!!

[William Munney]

5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Sorry if it came across that I was saying that he was spoiled or entitled. I didn't mean to imply that at all, but in re-reading my post I can see how it could be taken that way. He is very fortunate to have you and I'm sure he appreciates everything you're doing. What an opportunity to observe how to take on a project and stick with it to completion. Also in flying to these places what a great way to spend time together. You will both look back and remember these times for years to come. Best wishes in both of your endeavors!!

I know you better than that Lance.  But, thank you.  And I appreciate all your help and good advice with my project.  I am an experienced pilot but this is my first ownership airplane and it needed a bunch of work as we have discussed.  I have had other people here and there who have suggested I was spoiling him but my view is that I would like to take advantage of this small window in both our lives where we get to see the country together, learn a few things together and allow me reconnect to my GA roots.

I would not have done it if he was a shitty kid.  Parents know, even if they won’t say it, if they got a bad one.  He is the most deserving young man I know and he is all smiles.  I wish you could have been with us on his first 500/1 approach in the Ovation when he called out “there it is!” when the runway came into view ………and then, “ just like it’s supposed to”!  Ha ha

Getting a bit tired of him always filing altitudes so we can fly in the clouds for “actual IFR” but, we were all there once.

Thanks again Lance.

 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, William Munney said:

I know you better than that Lance.  But, thank you.  And I appreciate all your help and good advice with my project.  I am an experienced pilot but this is my first ownership airplane and it needed a bunch of work as we have discussed.  I have had other people here and there who have suggested I was spoiling him but my view is that I would like to take advantage of this small window in both our lives where we get to see the country together, learn a few things together and allow me reconnect to my GA roots.

I would not have done it if he was a shitty kid.  Parents know, even if they won’t say it, if they got a bad one.  He is the most deserving young man I know and he is all smiles.  I wish you could have been with us on his first 500/1 approach in the Ovation when he called out “there it is!” when the runway came into view ………and then, “ just like it’s supposed to”!  Ha ha

Getting a bit tired of him always filing altitudes so we can fly in the clouds for “actual IFR” but, we were all there once.

Thanks again Lance.

 

You should write an article on this and submit it to the Mooney Flyer.

I grew up in Northern Minnesota and spent time in Central Minnesota, probably not too far from you, plus lived in Grand Forks, ND for 5+ years. Now live in Texas. If the trips you're taking bring you down this way let me know, or if I get back up there to visit family I'd like to have lunch with you.

Keep us all posted on how it's going!