Landing a J -- nose wheel bounce

[PeterRus]

I know this topic has been discussed many times: airspeed is the key.

However I get a couple of nose wheel bounces almost on each landing. Airspeed seems to be in check, mains first, and then the nose bounces.

Any words of wisdom?

[jetdriven]

not holding it off long enough. You can also hold the nose wheel off until 40 mph.

[KLRDMD]

Has your airspeed indicator been calibrated lately? It sounds like you’re still too fast.

 

[Yetti]

sounds like your pucks are in good order.   Hold back on the yoke after the mains touch.  Do a less steep approach.   How hard are the mains hitting the ground?

[PeterRus]

Approaches are at VASI -- 2+2. Mains touch first, not hard at all. Holding long does not help: the nose drops with a couple of bounces. 

[jetdriven]

If you’re not hitting the up stop on the elevator you’re letting the nose wheel down earlier than possible. 

[Ragsf15e]

Is it only you in the airplane and limited baggage?  Or maybe two people and limited baggage?  When you’re real close to fwd cg limit it’s harder to set the nose down gently or keep it off.

[PT20J]

Part of it is some peculiarities of the Mooney landing gear design. The laminar flow airfoil places the thickest section where the wing spar is located farther back than other airfoils. This places the main gear, which is attached aft of the main spar, fairly far aft. Then also the gear design is a trailing link which moves the axels even farther aft. This means that there is more distance between the CG and the main wheels than on some other airplanes. Some call it nose heavy, but that's not really the problem. The problem is that the instant before you touch down there is a certain tail down force and the distance between the tail and the CG combined with this force creates a certain moment that has the airplane in longitudinal balance. But the instant the mains touch, the pivot point changes from the CG to the mains which have a shorter arm to the tail. The tail down force hasn't changed, but the moment arm has shortened so there is effectively a pitch down moment. If you try to catch it and yank back when the nose drops, you will usually be too late and over pull and may lift off again or cause a second nose wheel bounce. Part of the over control tendency is that we are used to airplanes where the controls forces diminish as the airplane slows. But the Mooney's trim bungees add force as the deflection increases and so the elevators get heavy in the flare.

The best way to softly land a Mooney that I've found is to get it slow before you get in ground effect (because the drag is higher out of ground effect) certainly by 50' AGL and carry a slight amount of power into the flare and then aim to reduce power to idle in the flare with the yoke still coming back as the wheels touch. 

[dzeleski]

I personally don’t find holding the nose off like that works very well. I find that it’s harder to gently place it down as the tail gets closer to stalling and more often then not I had the nose drop onto the pavement rather then gently placed.

First is obviously airspeed but once the mains touch I very gently “fly” the nose onto the ground. I also carry a tiny bit of power over the numbers. I’m retracting the flaps once the mains are solidly on the ground as well, and the stall horn never makes a peep the entire time.

Edited July 7 by dzeleski

[Ryan ORL]

*IF* you are landing at the proper speed, once the mains are on, you should smoothly go to max up elevator as your speed decays to let the nose down gently.

If you are too fast, for one, you are going to be flat, but also, you're more likely to balloon back off the runway.

I am at the up elevator stops on every landing rollout.

[N201MKTurbo]

I try to hold the plane off the ground as long as I can. After the mains touch the yoke is all the way back. The nose gently touches a couple of seconds after landing.

[hubcap]

22 hours ago, PT20J said:

Part of it is some peculiarities of the Mooney landing gear design. The laminar flow airfoil places the thickest section where the wing spar is located farther back than other airfoils. This places the main gear, which is attached aft of the main spar, fairly far aft. Then also the gear design is a trailing link which moves the axels even farther aft. This means that there is more distance between the CG and the main wheels than on some other airplanes. Some call it nose heavy, but that's not really the problem. The problem is that the instant before you touch down there is a certain tail down force and the distance between the tail and the CG combined with this force creates a certain moment that has the airplane in longitudinal balance. But the instant the mains touch, the pivot point changes from the CG to the mains which have a shorter arm to the tail. The tail down force hasn't changed, but the moment arm has shortened so there is effectively a pitch down moment. If you try to catch it and yank back when the nose drops, you will usually be too late and over pull and may lift off again or cause a second nose wheel bounce. Part of the over control tendency is that we are used to airplanes where the controls forces diminish as the airplane slows. But the Mooney's trim bungees add force as the deflection increases and so the elevators get heavy in the flare.

The best way to softly land a Mooney that I've found is to get it slow before you get in ground effect (because the drag is higher out of ground effect) certainly by 50' AGL and carry a slight amount of power into the flare and then aim to reduce power to idle in the flare with the yoke still coming back as the wheels touch. 

Skip, that is the best explanation I have heard describing what is happening during the landing sequence on a Mooney.

Thank you!

[Shadrach]

@PeterRus

I guess it depends on the weight and CG.  I personally have never encountered a downward pitch moment on landing unless my sink rate is suboptimal, resulting in the mains arresting the descent rather than airfoils thereby causing the nose to pivot down and around the mains.  I never carry power into the flare unless a strong gust causes an uncommanded climb leaving me with low energy several feat above the runway.   I'm not saying it's bad technique, I'm just saying that I don't do it. 

Go out and practice mains only touchdowns. It might take a while to get it right, but it is possible. It will sharpen your touchdown skills (which atrophy over time)  I like to practice mains only touch and goes, but they are not for everyone.  

Mains only touchdown only work at the correct touchdown speed.  Even if you pooch the approach speed, the correct touchdown speed can still be attained (if there is sufficient runway) by simply adjusting AOA in ground effect as the speed bleeds off.

I've posted this video many times over the years.  I leave it here just so you know what it looks like.  Note that the nose never touches the ground on either T&G.  I was dealing with a 7-9kt x wind that day so the plane weather vanes a bit at times with the nose in the air.   There may be something to adding a touch of power...My younger, sillier, self would on occasion add a touch of power after touchdown and wheelie for about 3000' of runway before setting it on the nose before slowing down to turn off.

 

[takair]

Personal preference, but I like to have a lot of up elevator trim going into the flare.  You have to be prepared to push on a go around, but helps with the flare.  Try some landings with reduced flap setting too….makes it a little easier to hold the nose off and you can work back to full flaps.  What is your nose tire pressure?  Maybe a little lower tire pressure will keep it from bouncing?

[KLRDMD]

On 7/7/2024 at 4:02 PM, dzeleski said:

. . .  and the stall horn never makes a peep the entire time.

As expected, too fast.

[Shadrach]

On 7/8/2024 at 6:55 PM, takair said:

Personal preference, but I like to have a lot of up elevator trim going into the flare.  You have to be prepared to push on a go around, but helps with the flare.  Try some landings with reduced flap setting too….makes it a little easier to hold the nose off and you can work back to full flaps.  What is your nose tire pressure?  Maybe a little lower tire pressure will keep it from bouncing?

Agreed.  When light, I often hit the aft trim stop by short final.

[Shadrach]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:02 PM, dzeleski said:

I personally don’t find holding the nose off like that works very well. I find that it’s harder to gently place it down as the tail gets closer to stalling and more often then not I had the nose drop onto the pavement rather then gently placed.

First is obviously airspeed but once the mains touch I very gently “fly” the nose onto the ground. I also carry a tiny bit of power over the numbers. I’m retracting the flaps once the mains are solidly on the ground as well, and the stall horn never makes a peep the entire time.

I hear the stall horn on almost every landing unless I've mismanaged the approach.

At shorter fields, I hear it the moment I begin to arrest the descent as I near the runway environment.

There are lots of Mooney pilots that think smoothly flying it on is good technique.  I did it once with an instructor several decades ago. After I touched down, he pulled back on the yoke, lifted off, flared and then landed again.  He asked me to really try to "actually land" the airplane on the next circuit. That really made an impression.

[dzeleski]

51 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

As expected, too fast.

I am not, if I was I would be floating down the runway which is not the case. I can pick a spot and land on it nearly every time. The rollout is no more then ~1000 feet. At KISP for instance I can aim for the numbers on 24 and be turned off the runway onto 15L.

32 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I hear the stall horn on almost every landing unless I've mismanaged the approach.

At shorter fields, I hear it the moment I begin to arrest the descent as I near the runway environment.

There are lots of Mooney pilots that think smoothly flying it on is good technique.  I did it once with an instructor several decades ago. After I touched down, he pulled back on the yoke, lifted off, flared and then landed again.  He asked me to really try to "actually land" the airplane on the next circuit.

I personally dont like that approach and dont use it, nor does my instructor.

Just my .02, im not here to argue. What I do works for me and my airplane and my instructors have been happy with that technique.

[PT20J]

Full stall landings are going to be the smoothest --- if you get everything right. The Mooney wing has a pretty abrupt stall break, so if you get near stall and then balloon due to a gust, or pulling a bit too hard or maybe thermals from a hot runway, it can drop in unless you catch it with a bit of power. The best landings occur with coordinated use of ALL controls: elevator, ailerons, rudder, AND power. The worst ones occur when you're not quite "in the groove" and try to horse it around with elevators alone and run out of energy a bit too high.

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

I am not, if I was I would be floating down the runway which is not the case. I can pick a spot and land on it nearly every time. The rollout is no more then ~1000 feet. At KISP for instance I can aim for the numbers on 24 and be turned off the runway onto 15L.

I personally dont like that approach and dont use it, nor does my instructor.

Just my .02, im not here to argue. What I do works for me and my airplane and my instructors have been happy with that technique.

I'm not here to argue either.  It is a fact, not an opinion that almost any airplane can be flown onto the runway at speeds well above stall speed.  They do it frequently in formation landings. "Float" is a function of both excess energy and AOA. It's quite possible to finesse an airframe onto the runway long before it has finished flying.

Now for an opinion - personally, I think that in almost all situations it is best practice to deliver the aircraft to the runway in a controlled manner with the least amount of energy possible.  It's easier on the equipment and hastens the time spent in the zone where RLOCs typically occur...too fast to have good wheel steering and braking and too slow to have good control surface authority.

 

[LANCECASPER]

One of the best quotes I've ever heard on landing:

Remember, we make good landings when we want to fly and the airplane wants to land, and we make bad landings when we want to land and the airplane wants to fly! 

Wayne Fischer

Good article:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/fd03665a-9127-4f79-a429-ee3607a81548/downloads/Wayne Fisher on Landing.pdf?ver=1619678278351

 

The most consistent landings I ever had in a Mooney were in a '97 Encore with the 2 blade prop that I had for about a year. As soon as I bought it I called Bob Cabe for some refresher training, but he  couldn't work me in for about a month. I went out a few times a week and practiced landings. When I had the numbers nailed it just wanted to land every time, as the stall horn was going off. By the time we flew together it was one of the few times that I seemed to make just about perfect landings with someone else in the airplane . Usually there's no one around to see those. 

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I hear the stall horn on almost every landing unless I've mismanaged the approach.

At shorter fields, I hear it the moment I begin to arrest the descent as I near the runway environment.

There are lots of Mooney pilots that think smoothly flying it on is good technique.  I did it once with an instructor several decades ago. After I touched down, he pulled back on the yoke, lifted off, flared and then landed again.  He asked me to really try to "actually land" the airplane on the next circuit. That really made an impression.

Great post!

Lately I've slipped into more of the fly it on landings which, unfortunately, have been very smooth.  But, many of them I do NOT hear the stall warning so I KNOW I'm too fast..damn it!  I used to be able to make the first turn-off, 650 feet from threshold...lately, not so much, I'm afraid.  Need to get out there and practice some T&Gs (OH, THE HORROR...T&Gs in a Mooney!)

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Now for an opinion - personally, I think that in almost all situations it is best practice to deliver the aircraft to the runway in a controlled manner with the least amount of energy possible. 

I cannot agree more strongly!

[PT20J]

2 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Great post!

Lately I've slipped into more of the fly it on landings which, unfortunately, have been very smooth.  But, many of them I do NOT hear the stall warning so I KNOW I'm too fast..damn it!  I used to be able to make the first turn-off, 650 feet from threshold...lately, not so much, I'm afraid.  Need to get out there and practice some T&Gs (OH, THE HORROR...T&Gs in a Mooney!)

You can grease a Mooney on, or you can land as short as possible. If you can do both at the same time you were lucky. The only criteria for a good landing is that you touch down on the mains, on the centerline, with no sideways drift. Passengers like smooth landings. There is no shame in landing smoothly and a bit longer as long as there is sufficient runway. Just be able to drop it into a short field if you need to. In that case, I don't care so much about smooth. Remember when you first learned: normal landings and short field landings were different procedures.

I learned to fly from an instructor that used to win short landing contests. He stressed short field techniques. Years later, I had another CFI friend and we would take my 78 J out once a month and take turns shooting approaches. It irked me that he landed much smoother than I did. Eventually, I caught on that he was not coming in at the absolute minimum airspeed (because the flare then happens very quickly ending in a stall) but instead was doing a very carefully executed flare maneuver that allowed enough time to judge height and make adjustments. He was wasn't going fast enough to cause a lot of float, but he was making a turnoff one past where I would have normally exited.

IMHO there is too much concern about the float and the advice from more experienced pilots is always to slow down. That is the best way to land a Mooney, but not necessarily the best way to learn to land a Mooney. Instead, come in a little faster which makes the flare last longer and learn how to use elevators and power to control the flare and touch down smoothly. Do this on a long enough runway that landing distance is not a concern. Once you can consistently land smoothly start slowing down to decrease the float until you find an approach speed that is comfortable (which will vary with weight) to trade off landing distance and touchdown smoothness.

[MikeOH]

@PT20J

Thanks for your post; makes me feel a little better about my smooth landings  I still think I've become a little sloppy on speed control lately.  So, this thread is a good reminder.