If you need/want the OEM 40:1 Gear Set

[201Steve]

I have been talking to other type clubs, ones that are far more orphaned than Mooney. I will not name any names since there are rabble rousers among us. Guess what they do to keep their airplanes alive? Suprise! They make group buys for OPP and openly make available the inventory, sources, and supporting documentation. Have they ever been harassed by the FAA? No they haven’t. They  also don’t have internal saboteurs writing grievance letters to the FAA like what happened with the down lock blocks, so that’s helpful. 
 

But this is so silly, us acting like we have a factory when we in fact really do not, begging them to make the unprofitable parts they will not make now or ever. I can’t tell you how many people on here have “talked to Jonny”. They can’t do anything outside of a very narrow scope, as is evident. Perhaps the only helpful thing they’ve done is run a couple batches of no back springs. One part. Whoopdie doo. 
 

Time we just fall in line with the rest of the orphans  and follow the orphan instructions outlined by our regulatory body.

 

[McMooney]

anyone have any specs on this part, be nice to start down the opp before i have a failure

[Matthew P]

23 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I have been talking to other type clubs, ones that are far more orphaned than Mooney. I will not name any names since there are rabble rousers among us. Guess what they do to keep their airplanes alive? Suprise! They make group buys for OPP and openly make available the inventory, sources, and supporting documentation. Have they ever been harassed by the FAA? No they haven’t. They  also don’t have internal saboteurs writing grievance letters to the FAA like what happened with the down lock blocks, so that’s helpful. 
 

But this is so silly, us acting like we have a factory when we in fact really do not, begging them to make the unprofitable parts they will not make now or ever. I can’t tell you how many people on here have “talked to Jonny”. They can’t do anything outside of a very narrow scope, as is evident. Perhaps the only helpful thing they’ve done is run a couple batches of no back springs. One part. Whoopdie doo. 
 

Time we just fall in line with the rest of the orphans  and follow the orphan instructions outlined by our regulatory body.

 

So, talking with the CEO, not Johnny, but will probably end up the same, I had the gears scanned into CAD by a professional company, unfortunately, no manufacturer will give me a quote because it's a part to be used in an aircraft.

[MikeOH]

37 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

So, talking with the CEO, not Johnny, but will probably end up the same, I had the gears scanned into CAD by a professional company, unfortunately, no manufacturer will give me a quote because it's a part to be used in an aircraft.

Maybe a little late....but did the manufacturers actually ask?  I would have just sent out the prints and asked for a quote; they're just gears, after all.

[Mark942]

I agree with MikeOH.  I used to own a small development and manufacturing company. We designed and built various industrial robotic and integrated systems. I found that when I went to the local NAPA parts store and asked for something, the first question they had was what make and model car was it for.  I would then explain what I was going to use it for and the guy behind the counter would always tell me that won't work for what you want to do.  REALLY ?? you have an engineering degree and have been working on this project for 6 months and can make that assessment?  So, I learned to go in to a parts store and ask for a generic something. When asked what make and model car I would tell them it was for a Home Built House Boat. They would then happily work with me to figure out which part they had came closest to what I wanted.  The fact that the part they sell might end up on an airplane is none of their business since they are not certifying it to any aviation standard or taking any responsibility.  So, don't ask don't tell. Our responsibility is to meet FAA regulations as to Owner supplied parts or what ever standard we are working with.

[MB65E]

Took mine apart for inspection today. Gear was fine, but the drive coupling had exploded. Other things to check. I wasn’t aware they would frag out like this. Found the missing piece in the belly on a stringer. 
Textron sells the B100-06 PN. 

learned a few things today. 

-Matt

Edited August 20 by MB65E

[EricJ]

50 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Took mine apart for inspection today. Gear was fine, but the drive coupling had exploded. Other things to check. I wasn’t aware they would frag out like this. Found the missing piece in the belly on a stringer. 
Textron sells the B100-06 PN. 

learned a few things today. 

-Matt

There's a Service Instruction on that as well, SIM20-89B.   You don't hear about it being an issue very often, though, and generally it can be inspected without removing the actuator from the airplane.

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I have been talking to other type clubs, ones that are far more orphaned than Mooney. I will not name any names since there are rabble rousers among us. Guess what they do to keep their airplanes alive? Suprise! They make group buys for OPP and openly make available the inventory, sources, and supporting documentation. Have they ever been harassed by the FAA? No they haven’t. They  also don’t have internal saboteurs writing grievance letters to the FAA like what happened with the down lock blocks, so that’s helpful. 
 

But this is so silly, us acting like we have a factory when we in fact really do not, begging them to make the unprofitable parts they will not make now or ever. I can’t tell you how many people on here have “talked to Jonny”. They can’t do anything outside of a very narrow scope, as is evident. Perhaps the only helpful thing they’ve done is run a couple batches of no back springs. One part. Whoopdie doo. 
 

Time we just fall in line with the rest of the orphans  and follow the orphan instructions outlined by our regulatory body.

 

I see where you are going, however, Mooney is not orphaned.  It remains an active corporation; although it effectively is a parts manufacturer that continues to carry the legal structure, overhead costs, certified service network relationships, vendor/supplier relationships and liabilities of a company that thinks it is still in the complete aircraft manufacturing business. That is not a sustainable business structure economically - it's no wonder Pollock used the word "precarious" to describe the current company situation to @Matthew P.

@Matthew P mentioned that he thinks that the MSCs are part of the issue.  Of course, since they are legally bound with Mooney by reseller agreements and intellectual property agreements (the "documentation" that you highlight above that you would like shared).  And historic vendors of Mooney proprietary parts remain bound to Mooney by legal agreements, both intellectual property (once again all the "documentation" that you would like shared) and reseller agreements. (like Garmin, Eaton, Rochester, etc).

Proprietary parts suppliers will not (can't) deal directly with owners, and MSC's will not touch OPP.  Not sure where these "group buys for OPP" will come from as long as Mooney remains an active legal entity.

Edited August 20 by 1980Mooney

[MBDiagMan]

If I could read a projected price, I might be interested in a set.  Have there been any guesses?

[Matthew P]

3 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

If I could read a projected price, I might be interested in a set.  Have there been any guesses?

Not as of yet, first we have to get mooney to approve the run of parts, mooney sets their price then the MSCs are notified, then the MSCs set their price, then they tell the customers the price of the part and the prices vary by MSC....still waiting on if Mooney is going to authorize a run.

[Matthew P]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Maybe a little late....but did the manufacturers actually ask?  I would have just sent out the prints and asked for a quote; they're just gears, after all.

Yes, they did...

[Matthew P]

8 hours ago, Mark942 said:

I agree with MikeOH.  I used to own a small development and manufacturing company. We designed and built various industrial robotic and integrated systems. I found that when I went to the local NAPA parts store and asked for something, the first question they had was what make and model car was it for.  I would then explain what I was going to use it for and the guy behind the counter would always tell me that won't work for what you want to do.  REALLY ?? you have an engineering degree and have been working on this project for 6 months and can make that assessment?  So, I learned to go in to a parts store and ask for a generic something. When asked what make and model car I would tell them it was for a Home Built House Boat. They would then happily work with me to figure out which part they had came closest to what I wanted.  The fact that the part they sell might end up on an airplane is none of their business since they are not certifying it to any aviation standard or taking any responsibility.  So, don't ask don't tell. Our responsibility is to meet FAA regulations as to Owner supplied parts or what ever standard we are working with.

So, I understand that you and MikeOH will be leading this effort then, since you have the engineering experience and Mike has the understanding of the process? So tell me the email address I need to send the CAD files of the gears to so that I don't slow down the process, you will still need to find a used gearset to have a metalurgy report done so you know the type of materials and type of heat treatment, unless you know an engineer that can call it out based on its use...on behalf of the 87 people that are standing by tho get a set of gears, I want to thank you and Mike for stepping up, please let me know the email address and once figured out, the price of the gears.

Edited August 20 by Matthew P
Name

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, Matthew P said:

So, I understand that you and MikeOH will be leading this effort then, since you have the engineering experience and Mike has the understanding of the process? So tell me the email address I need to send the CAD files of the gears to so that I don't slow down the process, you will still need to find a used gearset to have a metalurgy report done so you know the type of materials and type of heat treatment, unless you know an engineer that can call it out based on its use...on behalf of the 87 people that are standing by tho get a set of gears, I want to thank you and Mike for stepping up, please let me know the email address and once figured out, the price of the gears.

Look, you keep getting 'sensitive' about this.  For the record I, too, appreciate your efforts.  The questions you raise about process and material are all completely valid (and points I raised earlier in this discussion that also seemed to 'offend' you at that time for some reason).  These gears are pretty damn critical in avoiding a gear up as I'm sure you would agree.  It's not unreasonable to ask pertinent questions, IMHO.

As far as the manufacturers I'm pretty surprised they asked; it's none of their business.  I suppose they could refuse to quote if you didn't tell them.  OTOH, I'm not sure why you were legally obligated to tell them "aircraft" vs "home built houseboat".   But I get it if you felt uncomfortable lying about it.

Anyway, thank you for pursuing this with Mooney; that's the best solution as they will be factory certified parts with none of the material/manufacturing concerns of an OPP.

[201Steve]

I need an alternator belt for my 99 Chevrolet with 4.8L v8

“Year make and model please(I just told you that). Is it 4 wheel drive? Does it have auto high beams or standard? Did that thing come with a 5 CD changer or just cassette”

house boat love that  

 

 

 

 

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Look, you keep getting 'sensitive' about this.  For the record I, too, appreciate your efforts.  The questions you raise about process and material are all completely valid (and points I raised earlier in this discussion that also seemed to 'offend' you at that time for some reason).  These gears are pretty damn critical in avoiding a gear up as I'm sure you would agree.  It's not unreasonable to ask pertinent questions, IMHO.

As far as the manufacturers I'm pretty surprised they asked; it's none of their business.  I suppose they could refuse to quote if you didn't tell them.  OTOH, I'm not sure why you were legally obligated to tell them "aircraft" vs "home built houseboat".   But I get it if you felt uncomfortable lying about it.

Anyway, thank you for pursuing this with Mooney; that's the best solution as they will be factory certified parts with none of the material/manufacturing concerns of an OPP.

Not at all, if you know guys that have it figured out by all means, let me know, if individuals on this fourm are familiar with the process or engineers that want to voulenteer for the cause, by all means, please let me know...the problem is there are a few people making statements like your without any solutions, so there's no point since you, and those like you aren't willing or able to contribute to the solution...so I'm not offender, just don't need armchair quarterback that aren't willing to get off their azz and suit up...you mentioned that you talked to people that got it figured out, the other mentioned he was an engineer, so, more than willing to accept your assistance.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

I need an alternator belt for my 99 Chevrolet with 4.8L v8

“Year make and model please(I just told you that). Is it 4 wheel drive? Does it have auto high beams or standard? Did that thing come with a 5 CD changer or just cassette”

house boat love that  

"Off road vehicle" works, too.    Or just "an actuator for a vehicle", or something.    

 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Matthew P said:

Not at all, if you know guys that have it figured out by all means, let me know, if individuals on this fourm are familiar with the process or engineers that want to voulenteer for the cause, by all means, please let me know...the problem is there are a few people making statements like your without any solutions, so there's no point since you, and those like you aren't willing or able to contribute to the solution...so I'm not offender, just don't need armchair quarterback that aren't willing to get off their azz and suit up...you mentioned that you talked to people that got it figured out, the other mentioned he was an engineer, so, more than willing to accept your assistance.

You miss the point of the comments such as mine that you feel don't contribute, which is that they do contribute by pointing out issues that you, 'the designer', may not have considered. In a formal engineering environment it would be called a design review; a bunch of other engineers NOT associated with the project/design will review and CRITIQUE the design for just these kinds of reasons.  You don't chase them out of the room telling them they should 'get off their azz and suit up' and design it for you!

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

"Off road vehicle" works, too.    Or just "an actuator for a vehicle", or something.    

 

"an actuator for a vehicle". Perfect!  Gives them an answer without having to even tell a 'white lie'

[EricJ]

I wound up going down a bit of a rabbit hole today, actually while looking for a source for the gear seal in the Dukes 1057 actuator, since I'm likely pulling mine for inspection this month.   I discovered a couple things that may or may not be useful in the context of getting gears made or otherwise sourced somewhere:

Mooney SI M20-112A covers installing the 40:1 gears in 20:1 actuators, and describes how this makes the result "equivalent to a Dukes 1057 actuator".   I think the kit just got the gears from Dukes, so they are unlikely to be Mooney parts since the Dukes 1057 actuator has the 40:1 gears natively.   This may be why some of us with the Dukes 1057 aren't subject to the inspections that the other actuators are.   In other words, I don't think they were ever Mooney parts, they've always been sourced from Dukes.

The upshot of that is that Mooney may not know where they came from, either, since they're not their parts, and has no better idea of how to source them or get them made than anyone else.   It looks like they're Dukes parts.

So, still looking for a replacement for the shaft seal, I found that what was Dukes was ultimately acquired by Transdigm, who still exists.    Transdigm owns Champion Aerospace and AmSafe and a few other names people might recognize, and it appears that the most likely repository of what was Dukes is now Aero Fluid Products, which also still exists as a subsidiary of Transdigm.   

https://www.aerofluidproducts.com/

It doesn't appear that they still make, or would be interested in, anything remotely close to what we need.   It'd probably be a significant project for anybody there to research where the Dukes IP went and figure out who made gears for what actuators when, etc., etc.   In other words, the engineering data for these gears are probably lost to time.   

I think the upshot is that we're on our own here.   I don't think Mooney knows anything we don't or has any magic access to anything that we don't have access to.   It looks to me like OPP is the only way these parts can be sourced, and the group processes used successfully by other vintage aircraft communities (including here) are going to be the best route to success.  A reputable industrial gear company with an example article to duplicate is probably a good path forward.

[Matthew P]

37 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I wound up going down a bit of a rabbit hole today, actually while looking for a source for the gear seal in the Dukes 1057 actuator, since I'm likely pulling mine for inspection this month.   I discovered a couple things that may or may not be useful in the context of getting gears made or otherwise sourced somewhere:

Mooney SI M20-112A covers installing the 40:1 gears in 20:1 actuators, and describes how this makes the result "equivalent to a Dukes 1057 actuator".   I think the kit just got the gears from Dukes, so they are unlikely to be Mooney parts since the Dukes 1057 actuator has the 40:1 gears natively.   This may be why some of us with the Dukes 1057 aren't subject to the inspections that the other actuators are.   In other words, I don't think they were ever Mooney parts, they've always been sourced from Dukes.

The upshot of that is that Mooney may not know where they came from, either, since they're not their parts, and has no better idea of how to source them or get them made than anyone else.   It looks like they're Dukes parts.

So, still looking for a replacement for the shaft seal, I found that what was Dukes was ultimately acquired by Transdigm, who still exists.    Transdigm owns Champion Aerospace and AmSafe and a few other names people might recognize, and it appears that the most likely repository of what was Dukes is now Aero Fluid Products, which also still exists as a subsidiary of Transdigm.   

https://www.aerofluidproducts.com/

It doesn't appear that they still make, or would be interested in, anything remotely close to what we need.   It'd probably be a significant project for anybody there to research where the Dukes IP went and figure out who made gears for what actuators when, etc., etc.   In other words, the engineering data for these gears are probably lost to time.   

I think the upshot is that we're on our own here.   I don't think Mooney knows anything we don't or has any magic access to anything that we don't have access to.   It looks to me like OPP is the only way these parts can be sourced, and the group processes used successfully by other vintage aircraft communities (including here) are going to be the best route to success.  A reputable industrial gear company with an example article to duplicate is probably a good path forward.

So,  The gear sets (both 20:1 and 40:1) are manufactured by a 3rd party under contract with Mooney, and still available as long as Mooney places the order which they have been unwilling to do because they have to front the money and they aren't willing to do that nor can they accept pre-pay for the order from the MSCs, not that the MSCs would be willing to front the money. I received a test from the CEO last week, they are looking at the possibility of licensing those parts, like they have done with other parts, so that they are available to be ordered...we'll see.  SO, WHERE ARE WE CURRENTLY. A MoonySpace individual sent me a unused set of the 20:1 gear set, I had them professionally scanned and measured and have the 3D CAD Drawing for them....Another MooneySpace individual send me a set that failed inspection so that I can have them tested to determine the metal and heat treating makeup of the gear sets, UNFORTUNATELY,  NONE of the (5) Metallurgy testing facilities, that I have requested testing quotes from, will provide their service to an individual, so I'm still trying but have been unsuccessful thus far.  I have also requested, through the FAA (Certification Branch), under the Freedom of Information Act, that they provide the drawings and metallurgy report for the gear set so that we can satisfy the requirement of the OPP that the parts are equal to or better than OEM for a manufactured part that is no longer produced or available, I've called, they have the request but gave NO indication as to how long it will take to approve/disapprove the request. 

So, if ANYONE knows of a metallurgist, that might be able to test the gear sets, please let me know.

 

I'm still trying guys....

Matt

[N201MKTurbo]

28 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

So,  The gear sets (both 20:1 and 40:1) are manufactured by a 3rd party under contract with Mooney, and still available as long as Mooney places the order which they have been unwilling to do because they have to front the money and they aren't willing to do that nor can they accept pre-pay for the order from the MSCs, not that the MSCs would be willing to front the money. I received a test from the CEO last week, they are looking at the possibility of licensing those parts, like they have done with other parts, so that they are available to be ordered...we'll see.  SO, WHERE ARE WE CURRENTLY. A MoonySpace individual sent me a unused set of the 20:1 gear set, I had them professionally scanned and measured and have the 3D CAD Drawing for them....Another MooneySpace individual send me a set that failed inspection so that I can have them tested to determine the metal and heat treating makeup of the gear sets, UNFORTUNATELY,  NONE of the (5) Metallurgy testing facilities, that I have requested testing quotes from, will provide their service to an individual, so I'm still trying but have been unsuccessful thus far.  I have also requested, through the FAA (Certification Branch), under the Freedom of Information Act, that they provide the drawings and metallurgy report for the gear set so that we can satisfy the requirement of the OPP that the parts are equal to or better than OEM for a manufactured part that is no longer produced or available, I've called, they have the request but gave NO indication as to how long it will take to approve/disapprove the request. 

So, if ANYONE knows of a metallurgist, that might be able to test the gear sets, please let me know.

 

I'm still trying guys....

Matt

The company I used to work for would do that kind of thing. Meaning they would be the intermediary between you and the testing lab. Expect to pay about $5000 for that service. Maybe less. 

[Vance Harral]

41 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

I'm still trying guys....

Thanks for your tireless efforts, Matt.

[Vance Harral]

4 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Expect to pay about $5000 for that service. Maybe less.

This seems like the sort of thing Mooneyspacers could collectively fund in a way that doesn't take much cash out of any particular person's pocket.  I'd pledge $100 or more toward the effort, and I'd bet there are dozens of others that would too.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, Vance Harral said:

This seems like the sort of thing Mooneyspacers could collectively fund in a way that doesn't take much cash out of any particular person's pocket.  I'd pledge $100 or more toward the effort, and I'd bet there are dozens of others that would too.

Somebody, just needs to run the project. Do the fund raising, manage the vendors, deal with the FAA and get it done. So far Mathew P has been doing it.

[MikeOH]

@Matthew P

You are tenacious! Thank you.

Did Mooney indicate why they wouldn't accept a pre-pay from an MSC?  Seems weird.

As others have mentioned, many of us would gladly toss in a few hundred bucks each.  Pick an MSC to place the order (so, NO financial risk to the MSC), and we'd be done!