Potential Pilot Deviation

[Rick Junkin]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

if your radio actually fails, you are supposed to squawk 7700 for 1 minutes, then 7600

That's the way I learned it too, but the guidance has changed. Squawk 7600 for comm failure, no need to squawk 7700 first. If you have a compounding emergency and are headed to the closest suitable airport to land as soon as possible, then 7700 is appropriate.

[Hank]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:43 PM, Rick Junkin said:

That's the way I learned it too, but the guidance has changed. Squawk 7600 for comm failure, no need to squawk 7700 first. If you have a compounding emergency and are headed to the closest suitable airport to land as soon as possible, then 7700 is appropriate.

All I was taught (PPL, 2007; IA, 2010) was to squawk 7600 and fly your last clearance, if you had one.

[EricJ]

Another good poll would be how many people have filled out an ASRS report, or more than one. 

[Rick Junkin]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

Another good poll would be how many people have filled out an ASRS report, or more than one. 

Isn't that on everyone's flight debriefing checklist? 

[dkkim73]

3 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

Isn't that on everyone's flight debriefing checklist? 

Maybe Foreflight has an easy function "Send to ASRS Report". Prefill all the stuff to make it quicker.

Interestingly the FlySto service has all sorts of flags, "turned on AP too low", "exceeded max MAP" etc. 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

That's the way I learned it too, but the guidance has changed. Squawk 7600 for comm failure, no need to squawk 7700 first. If you have a compounding emergency and are headed to the closest suitable airport to land as soon as possible, then 7700 is appropriate.

According to Captain Joe (who appears to be wearing FO stripes), 75 is for "terrorist with knive", 76 is for "need radio fixed", and 77 is for "falling from heaven".

[Pinecone]

The previous guidance was 7700 to let them know something was going on, then 7600 to tell them what.

I did get to do that one time.

[midlifeflyer]

...which all assumes that with our modern integrated solid state avionics, the only things failing are the two com radios in the stack.

[FlyWalt]

On 5/17/2024 at 8:12 PM, GeeBee said:

I would welcome cpdlc.

 

I would too. We love it at the airline level. Plus, those pesky voice communications would not be interrupting my XM radio as much anymore.

[201er]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

...which all assumes that with our modern integrated solid state avionics, the only things failing are the two com radios in the stack.

Or hitting the com swap twice 

[EricJ]

37 minutes ago, 201er said:

Or hitting the com swap twice 

Any even number, including zero after a re-tune. 

 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Or hitting the com swap twice 

Never happened to me....this week, anyway

[flyboy0681]

I had a nearly identical NORDO situation about eight years ago. I was flying to Ashville and on frequency with Charlotte, passing just west of Greenville when I noticed I hadn't heard any chatter on the frequency. My gears started moving as I looked at the IFR map for the center frequency in the area. When I made contact, the controller said that they have been trying to reach me for several minutes. He got me all straightened out and I continued on, thinking nothing of it.

Four weeks later I got a call from the Charlotte FSDO informing me that a case had been opened and wanted an accounting of why I hadn't contacted Greenville approach when I acknowledged to the controller that I was switching over. Huh?

This incident was during the time of the new Pilots Rights implementation at the FAA, and I was told that I had the right to obtain the center records and recordings, which I did request. A week later the CD arrived in the mail and I listened to the 1.5 hour recording preceding, during and after the incident, paying close attention for my tail number, while wading through dozens of other flights. I clearly heard the various communications that were directed to me, until the point where they asked me to contact Greenville approach. Silence.  Then they called me a few times more, with no response from me. The recording also included their shout out to me through On Guard.

I responded in writing that I must have been out of range when the call came to contact Greenville and that the audio clearly shows that I did not acknowledge the call to switch frequencies. I notated the time in the recording when the initial call went out to me and reported it in my letter.

A few weeks later I received a call from the guy that I was dealing with at FSDO and he told me that I was correct, I hadn't acknowledged the call to switch frequencies, and that the case had been closed. I will say this, the guy who I dealt with was super nice, very personable and polite throughout the whole ordeal.

Two things that I want to close with. First, as others have said here, always monitor On Guard. Since that incident, I have made it a religion to keep it on COM2 and many times have heard ATC calling for a particular plane. Second, a friend of mine is a controller and he echo's what some have said on this thread. They really don't want to deal with paperwork as it ruins their day. So in order for a pilot to be called on a possible deviation, it's probably serious. In my case, my friend said that chances are the controller handling me near Greenville forgot about me and was trying to cover his rear.

 

[201er]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Four weeks later I got a call from the Charlotte FSDO informing me that a case had been opened and wanted an accounting of why I hadn't contacted Greenville approach when I acknowledged to the controller that I was switching over.

How did they get your phone number? Unless they gave you a phone number to call and you did?

[GeeBee]

Flight plan or NOAA data

[Paul Thomas]

16 hours ago, 201er said:

How did they get your phone number? Unless they gave you a phone number to call and you did?

If you have basic biographical information on someone, getting their phone numbers is not complicated. It's amazing how much information is at the government's fingertips.

[flyboy0681]

16 hours ago, 201er said:

How did they get your phone number? Unless they gave you a phone number to call and you did?

Actually, they called my partner first. The address for the LLC that the plane is registered in uses his office address.

[Matthew P]

On 5/17/2024 at 3:01 PM, Danb said:

Case closed, can,t or won’t say anything else except the Center was very fair professional and respectful 

D

 

 

You certainly changed your tune...And why can't or won't you say anything else, come to realize you put in the wrong freq?

 

[PeteMc]

On 5/19/2024 at 1:21 PM, 201er said:

How did they get your phone number?

If you've ever filed a Flight Plan or filled in other FAA docs, you gave them your phone number.  Probably email too.

 

[kortopates]

The previous guidance was 7700 to let them know something was going on, then 7600 to tell them what.
I did get to do that one time.

I teach this stuff at the college and my Lost Comm lecture is my only FAA Approved lecture by the TRACON and they would really like you know that they treat all emergency codes exactly all alike as Emergencies. If you’re lost comm they want us to squawk 7600 only and not switch to 7700 or alternate.
And then realize it is an emergency and don’t hesitate to deviate from 91.185 and AIM 6-4-1 as you deem necessary to get down soonest. After all, in a radar environment they’ll be watching you closely and keep other instrument traffic away from you and the sooner you are down the happier everyone will be.


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[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

I teach this stuff at the college and my Lost Comm lecture is my only FAA Approved lecture by the TRACON and they would really like you know that they treat all emergency codes exactly all alike as Emergencies. If you’re lost comm they want us to squawk 7600 only and not switch to 7700 or alternate.
And then realize it is an emergency and don’t hesitate to deviate from 91.185 and AIM 6-4-1 as you deem necessary to get down soonest. After all, in a radar environment they’ll be watching you closely and keep other instrument traffic away from you and the sooner you are down the happier everyone will be.


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Pretty much what I have heard from every controller I have either asked or heard talk about it.

[Pinecone]

On 5/21/2024 at 1:08 PM, kortopates said:

I teach this stuff at the college and my Lost Comm lecture is my only FAA Approved lecture by the TRACON and they would really like you know that they treat all emergency codes exactly all alike as Emergencies. If you’re lost comm they want us to squawk 7600 only and not switch to 7700 or alternate.
And then realize it is an emergency and don’t hesitate to deviate from 91.185 and AIM 6-4-1 as you deem necessary to get down soonest. After all, in a radar environment they’ll be watching you closely and keep other instrument traffic away from you and the sooner you are down the happier everyone will be.

I understand that things have changed.  And so can I.

Just explaining the reason why before.  I am sure that the modern ARC systems can light up with 7600 code, but the older systems seemed to not do so.

I did my instrument training 1980 - 81.