How long before we see e-loran

[McMooney]

I am planning to upgrade my secondary radio, a KX170B, this year, but I’m having difficulty deciding on its replacement

Garmin 215 --  second nav/com, 8.33 channels, cheaper install

or

Garmin 355, -- second gps, 8.33 channels,  but expensive install

wondering why my avionics upgrades are never align with new tech, watch e-loran come out next year

Edited April 13, 2024 by McMooney

[Utah20Gflyer]

I have a 355 and love it.   It makes navigation extremely simple and it’s nice that it has a frequency database.   Even if e loran came out I think you’d still want a WAAS GPS navigator and a modern digital radio in your panel.  

[PeteMc]

5 hours ago, McMooney said:

watch e-loran come out next year

Even if e-LORAN came out next year, GPS Approaches are not going away for a LONG time.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

It seems that some of the LORAN chains are periodically turned back on for testing. 
 

I still have a LORAN in the avionics museum and an antenna. I think I will hook it up and see if I get a signal.

[N201MKTurbo]

eLORAN transmits differential corrections in its data channel. Other than that, it is the same as LORAN-C. 
 

Obama signed legislation to turn it off, then signed legislation to not dismantle the stations. Trump signed legislation to explore turning it back on with enhancements. The military has been exploring it ever since. It is just waiting for funding. 
 

You would think the massive infrastructure bill would have had a few pennies for LORAN.

[PT20J]

Last I heard DOTs position is that eLORAN would be a privately owned and operated fee for service system with no government funding. I would not hold my breath. 

[ArtVandelay]

Even if e-LORAN came out next year, GPS Approaches are not going away for a LONG time.
 

Since Loran is only 2 dimensional (no altitude guidance, so no LPV approach) , GPS will always be the best choice.

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Since Loran is only 2 dimensional (no altitude guidance, so no LPV approach) , GPS will always be the best choice.

Well, there's that too! 

[Pinecone]

With GPS outages, I would think something like DME-DME navigating (or VOR-DME) would show up before eLORAN

[N201MKTurbo]

Our navigators could do VOR VOR with just a software change. I don’t think any of them have DME receivers. From the governments standpoint, maintaining a few LORAN chains is probably cheaper than maintaining a bunch of VOR DME stations.

[cliffy]

With the final amount of VOR/DME stations after removing most I would think that DME/DME  mav would be

problematic due to reception  issues because the stations are so far apart (unless you were high and even then?)

[Pinecone]

DME-DME is used by a LOT of jets, including Part 121.   

A DME station is pretty simple and reasonably cheap to put up.  And not much land required.

Even with the decommissioning of VOR stations, there should still be coverage.

[N201MKTurbo]

DME transmitters are relatively cheap and don’t need the large buildings and a big chunk of land like a VOR. 

if the government was wise (just kidding), they could put them in commercial radio sites for little money.

[EricJ]

One hurdle with DME is that the user equipment has to transmit, which differentiates it from GPS, VOR, ADF, or the various flavors of loran.   This complicates development, licensing, certification, and maintenance.   It also adds a layer of potential security and network integrity issues.   It's doable, obviously, but is an additional hurdle.

I think the VOR MON is going to be the official GPS backup, and there will be automatic triangulators that (probably roughly) estimate your lat/lon from all of the VOR signals within reception range.   That won't provide landing assistance, but it looks like LOC/ILS/etc. approaches are being retained for that reason.    Our airport (DVT) went through a lot of recent construction and re-arranging of taxiways, etc., to meet standards so that an ILS approach can be added.

[Pinecone]

I am sure that Garmin could come up with a separate box that will do DME, then software to use the info.

Then later models could include it.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I am sure that Garmin could come up with a separate box that will do DME, then software to use the info.

Then later models could include it.

These days, it would be easy to make a digital radio LRU for either DME or LORAN. Just ask @EricJ, he is our radio engineer. The harder thing is the antenna, you would need to install a DME antenna and a LORAN antenna. 

[jamesm]

Being that  GPS  it's single point of failure and not easy serviceable  as ground based systems at my understanding. The world strive could cause one of these unstable or rouge nation(s)  (north Korea or Iran or some other nation)  create havoc on the rest of us if they start launching into space.  In 90's I heard something about the  I think it was called ALS (Advance Landing System) it made use of already existing equipment in our plane. I think Transponder and CDI as I recalled you were assigned  a discrete  transponder code and some how it tied in to CDI for course lateral and vertical guidance. I haven't heard to much activity on that topic I think heard mentioned but no real pursuit. I would nice to another low cost back up alternative should the GPS system outage becomes the new norm.

[N201MKTurbo]

32 minutes ago, jamesm said:

Being that  GPS  it's single point of failure and not easy serviceable  as ground based systems at my understanding. The world strive could cause one of these unstable or rouge nation(s)  (north Korea or Iran or some other nation)  create havoc on the rest of us if they start launching into space.  In 90's I heard something about the  I think it was called ALS (Advance Landing System) it made use of already existing equipment in our plane. I think Transponder and CDI as I recalled you were assigned  a discrete  transponder code and some how it tied in to CDI for course lateral and vertical guidance. I haven't heard to much activity on that topic I think heard mentioned but no real pursuit. I would nice to another low cost back up alternative should the GPS system outage becomes the new norm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_landing_system
 

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, jamesm said:

Being that  GPS  it's single point of failure and not easy serviceable  as ground based systems at my understanding. 

GPS has more redundancy than most nav systems, so I don't think "single point of failure" applies to it very well, at least not as much as other candidate systems.   It's also been updated many times and is controllable from the ground.