Mooney Down (03/25/24) - Near St. Augustine-Northeast Florida Regional Airport, FL (UST)

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I haven't listened to the ATC recording, but what I don't understand, looking at his track, is why he didn't declare an emergency and land back on 13. He was on a left downwind for it after take turning crosswind.

Totally subjective at this point, but if the base leg did have a 10 knot tailwind, then with some anxiousness to get on the ground, an overshoot of final (and from the track that looks to be the case) could have caused the classic cross controlled base to final stall?  Just hypothesizing with no basis in fact...  Obviously, we need the final accident report to shed more light on the situation.  The pilot seemed pretty calm initially about a simple return for landing and closing the door.

[takair]

Regarding the topic of airspeed indicating inaccurately with the door open, I would suspect it is the flow disturbance over the static ports that cause it.  The static port locations are not only to get accurate altitude, but airspeed as well.  Not quite the same, but on some jets, even a ridge in a paint stripe at the wrong location could cause some splits in airspeeds.  

[PeteMc]

43 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

We tried slowing and slipping but nothing seemed to work

Did you open the Pilot Window?  

 

[skydvrboy]

23 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Did you open the Pilot Window?  

I don't recall.  I think so, but it was six years ago.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I honestly had no problem opening and closing the door to retrieve the seat belt tail. I don’t remember exactly how I set the airplane up. Maybe trimmed for nose up… this was at least 6 years ago so not fresh in my mind. Just remember that I was expecting it to be a problem and was pleasantly surprised.

Maybe you’re just a hulk!

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Maybe you’re just a hulk!

Don’t make me angry Drew, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry…

[RescueMunchkin]

I'm new to Mooneys and am curious why an open passenger compartment door coming open in flight is much of any issue - shouldn't the airflow around the plane keep it reasonably close to the closed position?

[Hector]

I'm new to Mooneys and am curious why an open passenger compartment door coming open in flight is much of any issue - shouldn't the airflow around the plane keep it reasonably close to the closed position?

It should not be a big issue. It’s happened to me at least 3 times, always when I let someone else close the door (two CFIs). After the third time I never let anyone else close the door. Don’t even try to close it. It is a distraction and it’s nearly impossible to do. Just land when able and close it. The open door (about one inch open) does create quite a bit more drag, but otherwise non-event as long as you continue to fly the plane.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

Totally subjective at this point, but if the base leg did have a 10 knot tailwind, then with some anxiousness to get on the ground, an overshoot of final (and from the track that looks to be the case) could have caused the classic cross controlled base to final stall?  Just hypothesizing with no basis in fact...  Obviously, we need the final accident report to shed more light on the situation.  The pilot seemed pretty calm initially about a simple return for landing and closing the door.

Add to that… they may well have had a full bag of gas, which is way cheaper at St. Augustine than at Homestead.  Speaking only for myself…. I seldom land at max landing weight and NEVER at 3368 MTOW.  Stall speed really goes up at heavy weight and high bank angle. 57 KIAS at a normal wings-level 3000# landing vs 72/85 @ 45/60* bank and MTOW.  AOA warning, if installed, would have been screaming if this is what happened.

-dan

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, exM20K said:

It could also be the baggage door

The pics on FB show the baggage door either open or missing (hard to tell which), so there may be something to that.

[carusoam]

A collection of updated details…

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/371054

1) Ground track looks like a classic set-up for base to final stall spin.

2) Tower ATC guys were discussing losing the Mooney on base.

3) Local news found a ‘Mooney expert’ who opined about losing a baggage door and how it can hit the tail structures…  and went on to describe a stall type of accident.

4) Plenty of errors in all of the ‘technical descriptions’.  Details of the baggage door hinge were il-informed

5) I only know of one baggage door being pulled off, and it was during cruise flight, at speed…

6) Doors don’t typically get pulled off at pattern speeds…

7) It can be a bit like having a hurricane inside the cabin, lots of paper and stuff flying around….

8) our cabins are usually a bit under a vacuum in flight… so when we use the alt static valve… we get a slight change in IAS…

9) Check the POH for any additional insight on the ‘emergency procedure’

10) I have tested both doors on the M20C, and M20R, before graduating to the PIC oversees the closing of any and all doors…

the baggage door gets left in only two positions… full open, or fully closed….   (A pain when the Robinsons are having an active day)

remember the list…  Aviate…etc.

 

Inviting @mike_elliott to the discussion…. And including @midlifeflyer (in case he is familiar with the plane)

Prayers for the lost airmen…

Best regards,

-a-

[hais]

8 hours ago, 201er said:

Sounds similar to the one in Canada not too long ago but with a much worse outcome

 

KSGJ 251556Z 07010KT 10SM OVC041 21/16 A3013

10 knot tailwind on base leg would imply about a 74 knot indicated diminishing to 63 in the base to final turn.

Popped door not only requires maintaining focus but also carrying additional airspeed. Something about how the air flows or the airspeed indicator indicates appears to require about an additional 10 knots of airspeed to maintain the same angle of attack in my experience. I NEVER let anyone else close my door and it hasn't happened in a decade since.

10 kts would be dangerous. is that much loss accurate? I don't recall noticing an apparent performance loss the couple times the door came open. Would be great if someone could do an experiment....

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, RescueMunchkin said:

I'm new to Mooneys and am curious why an open passenger compartment door coming open in flight is much of any issue - shouldn't the airflow around the plane keep it reasonably close to the closed position?

cabin doors stay open about an inch or two…

Most people opt for the land and close the door option… getting distracted trying to close the door near the ground, while flying, is a set-up for a different problem…

 

baggage doors also stay open about an inch or two… at traffic pattern speeds…. A couple have been known to pull the door support apart, and bend the door over the top of the fuselage….

The baggage door hinge is mostly stronger than the door when pulled slowly…. If the door snaps open in cruise flight… this is an unusual situation… 

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

The pics on FB show the baggage door either open or missing (hard to tell which), so there may be something to that.

Baggage door still intact and was open and in the up position at the crash site. Possible that it went through the crash sequence in that position, but seems more likely that it was opened by first responders.

[jlunseth]

Happened to me when I purchased the aircraft and my CFI and I took off from Scottsdale. Turned out the door was out of adjustment and would open readily. It is a nothing. More noise, but the door opens only about an inch and then won't open further because of the slipstream around the aircraft. Unfortunately won't close in the air either, the slipstream holds it very securely partially ajar. Just cold if you are at higher altitudes. Requires keeping focus if you want to land, but nothing about it requires effort by the pilot to secure the door. Mine was fixed more than a decade ago and has not been a problem since. I have it in my checklist to check the passenger door before takeoff. Passengers don't normally know how to close that door. Have to hold it closed with the leather handle while pushing the door handle into the locked position. I always hold it closed and let them push the handle, then give the door a big push to see if it is secure. It is possible for one latch to lock but not the other, usually the one at the top. If it is a baggage door that would be a completely different issue, usually departs the aircraft with damage according to past reports and events. 

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

If it is a baggage door that would be a completely different issue, usually departs the aircraft with damage according to past reports and events. 

I've also had the passenger door pop open 3 times on Mooneys I've owned over the years. I've never been able to close it in the air, other than being a nuisance, not a big deal. This placard should be on every Mooney passenger door(https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/warningonlythepilotplacard.php?clickkey=6452)  :



Regarding the baggage door though, it's not usually the baggage door popping open that's the problem, it's the major distraction it creates. I've mentioned this on Mooneyspace before, but it's worth repeating. My experience with that:

In September 1996 I bought a new Mooney TLS Bravo, and in early summer 1997 a friend needed me to drive him up to catch a commercial flight in Austin TX. No problem, I'll fly you to Austin Mueller (now closed).

He had flown with me many times and knew that hot starts in Texas summers can be tricky. We went over it before we ever left the ground. He was going to exit the airplane, get his bag, shut the baggage door and walk behind the airplane to the FBO for his ride to the terminal while I kept it at idle and didn't have to shut down. We landed, taxied, we went over it again, he exited, got his bag. I got my clearance, taxied, took off and  shortly after take-off I heard a loud bang from the back of the airplane - the baggage door has popped open on my new airplane. I was sure it had probably exited the airframe and had taken the tail section with it. I let the tower know what happened and that I was coming around to land on the perpendicular runway - all the way picturing what my airplane must look like. I turned final and wanted to get this thing on the ground to assess the damage. On final, a Delta pilot waiting for take-off, who had heard everything, says "Mooney, check your gear down". I got that horrible feeling. I would like to think that I would have made a short-final gumps check, but I'm not sure. After all was said and done after landing and then taxiing to the FBO and looking over the airplane, I closed the baggage door, locked it and there wasn't a scratch or a bend anywhere on the airplane. I had turned a minor distraction into what could have been a major problem. 

In this case in St. Augustine I would guess the distraction of the door opening caused a pilot, who had owned his airplane 25 years and was very familiar with it, to over-react and lose his concentration. Also I noticed he had the long range tanks (104 gallons) and since 252s are very challenged from a gross weight perspective if he was over-gross the handling is not the same in a tight turn from base to final.

[flyboy0681]

13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I did not know that “Fantom” had passed. I always wondered what became of him. I enjoyed his aviation insights and his dry sense of humor. How long has he been gone? 

 

 

 

[NickG]

48 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I've also had the passenger door pop open 3 times on Mooneys I've owned over the years. I've never been able to close it in the air, other than being a nuisance, not a big deal. This placard should be on every Mooney passenger door:



Regarding the baggage door though, it's not usually the baggage door popping open that's the problem, it's the major distraction it creates. I've mentioned this on Mooneyspace before, but it's worth repeating. My experience with that:

In September 1996 I bought a new Mooney TLS Bravo, and in early summer 1997 a friend needed me to drive him up to catch a commercial flight in Austin TX. No problem, I'll fly you to Austin Mueller (now closed).

He had flown with me many times and knew that hot starts in Texas summers can be tricky. We went over it before we ever left the ground. He was going to exit the airplane, get his bag, shut the baggage door and walk behind the airplane to the FBO for his ride to the terminal while I kept it at idle and didn't have to shut down. We landed, taxied, we went over it again, he exited, got his bag. I got my clearance, taxied, took off and  shortly after take-off I heard a loud bang from the back of the airplane - the baggage door has popped open on my new airplane. I was sure it had probably exited the airframe and had taken the tail section with it. I let the tower know what happened and that I was coming around to land on the perpendicular runway - all the way picturing what my airplane must look like. I turned final and wanted to get this thing on the ground to assess the damage. On final, a Delta pilot waiting for take-off, who had heard everything, says "Mooney, check your gear down". I got that horrible feeling. I would like to think that I would have made a short-final gumps check, but I'm not sure. After all was said and done after landing and then taxiing to the FBO and looking over the airplane, I closed the baggage door, locked it and there wasn't a scratch or a bend anywhere on the airplane. I had turned a minor distraction into what could have been a major problem. 

In this case in St. Augustine I would guess the distraction of the door opening caused a pilot, who had owned his airplane 25 years and was very familiar with it, to over-react and lose his concentration. Also I noticed he had the long range tanks (104 gallons) and since 252s are very challenged from a gross weight perspective if he was over-gross the handling is not the same in a tight turn from base to final.

Thanks for sharing this. It’s so true that we can become fixated on a problem and forget all the fundamentals. 

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

If it is a baggage door that would be a completely different issue, usually departs the aircraft with damage according to past reports and events. 

That is not correct.  The one that was all over youtube was at cruise speed and is the only one I'm aware of that departed the aircraft. Many here have reported one coming open on the t/o roll or after t/o with a normal landing to follow.

From the overhead shots of this wreck, the baggage door appears to be open and attached to the plane, and the overhead shots appear to be taken before any first responders were on the scene.

-dan

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Inviting @mike_elliott to the discussion…. And including @midlifeflyer (in case he is familiar with the plane)

  

20 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Looks like the airplane belonged to Ronald Hofer of Mooresville NC (14A), Lake Norman Airpark. He appears to have owned it since August of 1998.

Actually owned by Hofer Aero, LLC.

I don't know the airplane or the people in the crash. But I have learned that the airplane was very recently sold and neither Ronald Hofer nor his wife (both pilots) were on board. 

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

  Actually owned by Hofer Aero, LLC.

I don't know the airplane or the people in the crash. But I have learned that the airplane was very recently sold and neither Ronald Hofer nor his wife (both pilots) were on board. 

I noticed that it had been registered to the same owner for 18 years, which added to the mystery of the incident. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

I noticed that it had been registered to the same owner for 18 years, which added to the mystery of the incident. 

Actually if you pull the FAA documents it goes back to August 1998 when his LLC Hofer Aero was based in Michigan.

[LANCECASPER]

12 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

  

Actually owned by Hofer Aero, LLC.

I don't know the airplane or the people in the crash. But I have learned that the airplane was very recently sold and neither Ronald Hofer nor his wife (both pilots) were on board. 

Perhaps he sold the LLC which owned the airplane? As facts unfold we'll know more.

[midlifeflyer]

17 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Perhaps he sold the LLC which owned the airplane? As facts unfold we'll know more.

Selling the LLC is not too likely. My information is that the airplane was sold just last week, so I wouldn't expect the FAA database to show the new ownership.

Edited March 27 by midlifeflyer

[DXB]

18 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Isn't that kind of the point of having one on each side?  And in all the discussions in various plane checkouts, I've never had a CFI tell me to watch out for the Airspeed being off if the door pops open. 

 

I agree - I think the dual ports are interconnected in the tubing in the tail, so what transducers read out is an average, which might be handy with a crosswind component across the nose or yaw. And it could save your bacon if one side gets blocked.  I suppose if flow over one were reduced or turbulent due to a popped door that could also create some artifact, but I have no clue if this happens to any meaningful extent.