gtprend Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 I’ve been meaning to post this for awhile. I have a 77 J model with the earlier style baggage door latch. I didn’t like the thought that there was only one exit from the cabin in case of an emergency. I also noticed on later models Mooney added the interior emergency exit latch on the baggage door. Initially I thought I would add that latch to my door but when I researched further, it turns out the door latch is completely different on the newer doors with the interior mechanism. You could probably swap to a newer door with the new latch but that route has its own challenges with door fitting and repaint matching. I devised a simple design that is a minor modification to the inside plastic panel of the baggage door. I simply cut a hole in the panel in the area of the door pin latch mechanism center crank link. The link has two nuts that attach to each door pin rod-end. I made a simple handle that engages these nuts, and I attached it with a lanyard to the inside of the door. I finished the mod off with a cover for the hole (felcro’d on), a placard explaining the operation, and a piece of Velcro to hold the handle. It’s not an easy egress, but better than nothing…. Pictures showing this are attached. 3 Quote
EricJ Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Nicely done. There are a variety of mods to accomplish this and yours looks pretty nice. I just ran a cable to the latch and made a pull handle. Yours is less suscepitble to getting yanked inadvertently, but is a little more complicated to operate. 2 1 Quote
Ned Gravel Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 8 hours ago, EricJ said: Nicely done. There are a variety of mods to accomplish this and yours looks pretty nice. I just ran a cable to the latch and made a pull handle. Yours is less suscepitble to getting yanked inadvertently, but is a little more complicated to operate. About ten tears ago or so, Clarence walked me through building something like yours during an owner-assisted annual. Nice and simple. Then, four years later, while on a MAPA Pilot Proficiency Program course, the instructor I was flying with indicated I really needed to lock the baggage door to prevent its opening in flight. He, apparently, had this happen to him. However, since it never happened to me, I declined. Doing so negated the utility of the new egress safety device on the door. 2 Quote
mike_elliott Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Sometime, for practice, climb from the pilots seat and use the baggage door exit to get out. Now, imagine doing this with possibly a broken clavicle, a few broken ribs and a big gash in your head. Plan B would be to make sure you prop open the door if you are landing anyplace but a runway. 5 Quote
M20F-1968 Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 9 hours ago, gtprend said: You could probably swap to a newer door with the new latch but that route has its own challenges with door fitting and repaint matching. I substituted an Ovation baggage door for my original F-model door. The installation required pulling the hinge-pin, mounting a new 1/2 of the piano hinge to the airframe so that it aligns with the hinge on the door. The door seal that is on my airplane now is the one from the Ovation. The lock works perfectly. Easiest modification possible, but needs a DER sign-off which I have. John Breda 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 1 hour ago, mike_elliott said: Plan B would be to make sure you prop open the door if you are landing anyplace but a runway. This sounds different than "unlatch the door". Can you be more specific about how you would "prop open the door"? This is one of the things that keeps me awake at night. Quote
Hank Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said: This sounds different than "unlatch the door". Can you be more specific about how you would "prop open the door"? This is one of the things that keeps me awake at night. My primary CFI told me to put something in the doorway to prevent it from closing again. Anything you can reach--jacket, towel, flight bag, etc. Just not a seat belt or passenger hand . . . . Quote
EricJ Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said: This sounds different than "unlatch the door". Can you be more specific about how you would "prop open the door"? This is one of the things that keeps me awake at night. Most Mooneys, most GA airplanes, actually, use a bolt to keep the door closed. If you unlatch the door, open it a little bit, and then latch it again, the bolt will come out and prevent the door from closing. This is part of my pre-start passenger briefing, to show a new passenger how to do this. 3 3 Quote
Shadrach Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 14 hours ago, EricJ said: Nicely done. There are a variety of mods to accomplish this and yours looks pretty nice. I just ran a cable to the latch and made a pull handle. Yours is less suscepitble to getting yanked inadvertently, but is a little more complicated to operate. I have the same set up but your hardware looks nicer. I am now going to redesign my set up. Anything that you would do differently? Quote
Shadrach Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 5 hours ago, Ned Gravel said: About ten tears ago or so, Clarence walked me through building something like yours during an owner-assisted annual. Nice and simple. Then, four years later, while on a MAPA Pilot Proficiency Program course, the instructor I was flying with indicated I really needed to lock the baggage door to prevent its opening in flight. He, apparently, had this happen to him. However, since it never happened to me, I declined. Doing so negated the utility of the new egress safety device on the door. The lock provides very little mechanical security to the latch, but locking it does make you focus on latch ensuring its closure. Not sure if it can be locked with the latch in the open position. One thing that is nice about having an emergency pull is that the cable will move with the latch position. Eric could probably verify latch position by glancing at the pull; if not, it would be easy to mark the cable for reference. I am ashamed to say that I have had two baggage door pops in 20+ years of Mooney flying. Both failures were due to pilot distraction during preflight. Quote
Shadrach Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Oh and before anyone says it. Yes the side door can be closed in flight if it "Pops" in flight. This has never happened to me, but I once closed the door on a tail piece of the unoccupied passenger seatbelt. This was before EFBs when flight bags were larger and I was a bit smaller. The flight bag hid the belt tail from view. I simply paused the climb at 2000msl and slowed to 100MIAS. No problem Quote
Shadrach Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said: This sounds different than "unlatch the door". Can you be more specific about how you would "prop open the door"? This is one of the things that keeps me awake at night. It's not a big deal. In my experience, if the door is unlatched the slipstream holds it just outside the door frame. Quote
EricJ Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Shadrach said: I have the same set up but your hardware looks nicer. I am now going to redesign my set up. Anything that you would do differently? I'd try to cut the slot for the cable a little more cleanly, and plan for how far down the pull handle hangs. Right now when I close the hatch I have to push the handle away from the opening to keep it from blocking the hatch open. Neither is a big deal. Overall I'm very happy with it. 52 minutes ago, Shadrach said: Eric could probably verify latch position by glancing at the pull; if not, it would be easy to mark the cable for reference. Yes, the first item on my pre-start checklist is to verify that the hatch is closed and latched, and I can tell by whether the handle is hanging down on the cable or pulled up against the guide. 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 42 minutes ago, EricJ said: I'd try to cut the slot for the cable a little more cleanly, and plan for how far down the pull handle hangs. Right now when I close the hatch I have to push the handle away from the opening to keep it from blocking the hatch open. Neither is a big deal. Overall I'm very happy with it. Yes, the first item on my pre-start checklist is to verify that the hatch is closed and latched, and I can tell by whether the handle is hanging down on the cable or pulled up against the guide. The trim over my baggage door hatch is fabric covered foam. I punched a small hole for the wire to pass through but none of the grommets I’ve used have stayed in place. It’s upholstered with Ultrasuede, so I haven’t had much luck getting placard‘s to stick either. Minor problems but I would like for it to be passenger friendly and right now I don’t feel like it is. 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 3 hours ago, EricJ said: This is part of my pre-start passenger briefing, to show a new passenger how to do this. My pre-flight passenger brief says "Don't touch the door". I think I may add "or anything else, for that matter" just to cover all the bases. 1 Quote
Vance Harral Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Adding an interior baggage door unlatch mechanism to older Mooneys is a recurring topic on Mooneyspace and elsewhere. Many have done so, it certainly doesn't seem to hurt anything, and I try not to criticize what others do with their "safety dollars" (and time), though not always successfully. Obviously the factory thought it had real - or at least marketing - value. But as one who hasn't bothered with this mod, I'm moved to ask if there's any evidence, anywhere, of any Mooney accident, in which someone perished because they could not open the baggage door and use it as an exit? Sure, it's theoretically possible, but this seems like a really-corner corner case. Thinking about it, to get benefit from the interior unlatch mechanism, it seems like you have to have a situation where: rapid exit is the difference between life and death the airplane has not rolled onto its right side (because then both the cabin door and the baggage door are jammed against the ground) the airframe is bent badly enough that the main door cannot be opened - even with adrenaline - but the baggage door can; and... the party/ies at risk are not able bodied enough to man-handle the main door open, but are still able-bodied enough to crawl over the back seat into the baggage compartment, and fit themselves through the baggage door, in a timely manner I'd say this is... uh.... very unlikely. But maybe I'm missing something, happy to be educated to the contrary. On edit... are people doing this in part because of the old "the interior door handle came off in my hand" thing, where they don't have a pair of vice grips or similar in the cabin? Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 6 hours ago, Fly Boomer said: This sounds different than "unlatch the door". Can you be more specific about how you would "prop open the door"? This is one of the things that keeps me awake at night. unlatch it, it will slightly suck itself open. The idea of course is so that a crash doesn’t distort the thing and lock you inside. It’s also very important to do if your ditching Quote
A64Pilot Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 It amazes me that some crash every year because the door opened in flight. Now some I can maybe understand, the cool looking doors on the low wing Cessna it’s my understanding will get torn off if they open in flight, and I’ve heard but can’t verify that some doors really mess up the aerodynamics in flight, but Cessnas, Mooney’s and Pipers it just a nuisance. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32818-cessna-door-falls-off-lands-in-parking-lot That guy handled it just fine, but I like a design that the door stays attached. Personally no one but me is allowed to touch the door, largely because I’ve seen door handles stripped by someone who pushed really hard when things weren’t aligned just right. Quote
mike_elliott Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 5 hours ago, EricJ said: Most Mooneys, most GA airplanes, actually, use a bolt to keep the door closed. If you unlatch the door, open it a little bit, and then latch it again, the bolt will come out and prevent the door from closing. This is part of my pre-start passenger briefing, to show a new passenger how to do this. Exactly, simply push the door handle all the way forward like you were closing and locking, except with the door opened. in fact, it will be a B!t©h to reclose at 120 kts Quote
gtprend Posted January 24 Author Report Posted January 24 Thanks to all for the conversation. I did this very, very simple mod to the airplane to avoid any 337 paperwork (or other) and to not have to ma5ch paint on my new paint job. This mod simply adds the potential of another egress option (however difficult). Each controlled or not controlled off-field landing situation is different and could happen quickly from a very low altitude. Propping the main door could be a good idea but maybe not possible for many reasons. Propping open the main door could also weaken the cabin structure impact capability too. I’m not saying don’t prop it open but again, each situation is different and this simple second egress option gives me peace of mind. 1 Quote
blaine beaven Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 15 hours ago, A64Pilot said: It amazes me that some crash every year because the door opened in flight. Now some I can maybe understand, the cool looking doors on the low wing Cessna it’s my understanding will get torn off if they open in flight, and I’ve heard but can’t verify that some doors really mess up the aerodynamics in flight, but Cessnas, Mooney’s and Pipers it just a nuisance. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32818-cessna-door-falls-off-lands-in-parking-lot That guy handled it just fine, but I like a design that the door stays attached. Personally no one but me is allowed to touch the door, largely because I’ve seen door handles stripped by someone who pushed really hard when things weren’t aligned just right. I was riding backseat in a piper Aztec about 20 years ago during my training (I was only flying on empty legs). Shortly after takeoff, still during climb and within 2 miles of the runway, the passenger next to the door noticed the handle wasn’t all the way forward, and decided to remedy that. Unfortunately he pulled it in the wrong direction and it popped open. It felt like we dropped about 150 feet almost immediately. The door never came open more than a couple inches. It got super windy and loud, and the pilot turned back to the runway. He was distracted enough he forgot to put the gear down and when on final I was able to yell at him to put it down. My thought on the initial drop is that the open door managed to blank out a good chunk of the right elevator given our speed and angle of climb. It was scary, and it’s not surprising that people get flustered and ball a plane up when this happens. 1 1 Quote
Shadrach Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 16 hours ago, A64Pilot said: It amazes me that some crash every year because the door opened in flight. Now some I can maybe understand, the cool looking doors on the low wing Cessna it’s my understanding will get torn off if they open in flight, and I’ve heard but can’t verify that some doors really mess up the aerodynamics in flight, but Cessnas, Mooney’s and Pipers it just a nuisance. https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/32818-cessna-door-falls-off-lands-in-parking-lot That guy handled it just fine, but I like a design that the door stays attached. Personally no one but me is allowed to touch the door, largely because I’ve seen door handles stripped by someone who pushed really hard when things weren’t aligned just right. Some just gently float back to earth landing in residential neighborhoods. He had a sophisticated AP, he had a "level button" and he had a chute. He need to use all three to avoid death. I suspect that if the level function had throttle control, he would not have needed the chute. I would imagine that all of the instruments that reference static pressure would display a momentary adjustment which may have been disorienting. However, attitude information should not have been affected. I was not there but this strikes me as someone who was not really prepared to conduct the kind of mission they were embarking upon. https://planecrashmap.com/plane/md/N213CP/ Quote
Shadrach Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 17 hours ago, Vance Harral said: Adding an interior baggage door unlatch mechanism to older Mooneys is a recurring topic on Mooneyspace and elsewhere. Many have done so, it certainly doesn't seem to hurt anything, and I try not to criticize what others do with their "safety dollars" (and time), though not always successfully. Obviously the factory thought it had real - or at least marketing - value. But as one who hasn't bothered with this mod, I'm moved to ask if there's any evidence, anywhere, of any Mooney accident, in which someone perished because they could not open the baggage door and use it as an exit? Sure, it's theoretically possible, but this seems like a really-corner corner case. Thinking about it, to get benefit from the interior unlatch mechanism, it seems like you have to have a situation where: rapid exit is the difference between life and death the airplane has not rolled onto its right side (because then both the cabin door and the baggage door are jammed against the ground) the airframe is bent badly enough that the main door cannot be opened - even with adrenaline - but the baggage door can; and... the party/ies at risk are not able bodied enough to man-handle the main door open, but are still able-bodied enough to crawl over the back seat into the baggage compartment, and fit themselves through the baggage door, in a timely manner I'd say this is... uh.... very unlikely. But maybe I'm missing something, happy to be educated to the contrary. On edit... are people doing this in part because of the old "the interior door handle came off in my hand" thing, where they don't have a pair of vice grips or similar in the cabin? A word of caution to those (likely you @Vance Harral) with Mooneys that have Medeco "cam locks' installed as door and baggage door locks. It is possible unlock and open a locked cabin door, without completely unlocking it. This leaves the lock in a sort of limbo state where, upon closing and latching, the lock may engage without pilot input. It has happened twice in our 67F. Once in the 80s when I was a kid and once about 20 years ago when I was fairly new to Mooney flying (lesson learned). Both instances required assistance from bystanders. Both times were at uncontrolled airports. Once in the dead of an east coast summer and the other in the dead of an east coast winter. It took between 20 minutes and an hour to flag down help. No baggage door release cable at the time. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 25 Report Posted January 25 Odd notes on door opening in flight… 1) everyone has had at least one… 2) Check lists usually cure it from happening again… 3) There are odd reasons to do it on purpose… like a seat belt hanging in the wind… (really loud vibration sound) 4) They mostly happen in the traffic pattern at low speeds… where the door doesn’t get or cause any damage… 5) A couple of baggage doors have opened in flight and wrapped around the fuselage… the piano wire hinge stayed intact, requiring a replacement door. 6) MS has had one baggage door open in cruise flight… get torn off, and wrap around the horizontal stabilizer… It is one interesting read… if you are not familiar. Lots of rearrangement of the tail feathers occurred… Fortunately, a very professional (test) pilot handling the rest of the flight… Fuzzy PP memories only… not a mechanic. Best regards, -a- Quote
Tim-37419 Posted January 25 Report Posted January 25 On 1/23/2024 at 2:23 PM, Shadrach said: The lock provides very little mechanical security to the latch, but locking it does make you focus on latch ensuring its closure. Precisely. I actually put my key in the hatch lock after every flight so I can’t miss checking it. 1 Quote
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