Cruise Speeds

[Jrags]

Hello, I'm looking to buy my first airplane.  I'm looking for a fast cross country machine and am torn between a C210 A or B model and a M20C.  I look at the specs on Tradeaplane and it shows a 158kt cruise for an M20C but when I downloaded a POH, it shows a 150 MPH cruise which is about 135kts.  I also found a Flightaware flight for an M20C I am looking at to buy and saw a 150MPH cruise in actual flight.  Yet I read that an early 210 is not as fast as a Mooney.  What am I missing here.

[TheAv8r]

An M20C will do around 140 knots reliably. This can vary a bit depending on speed mods and how you run it, but I wouldn't plan on too much over 140.

[Bolter]

@Jrags There is a huge range of Mooney's, so the 210 vs Mooney is an incomplete comparison.  I think that regardless of the Mooney you choose, you will get significantly better fuel economy for similar speeds with a Mooney than a 210, though you get less seats and less Useful Load with the Mooney.  

What distance and what do you plan to bring with you for these fast cross country flights?  The range on a slower Mooney may exceed the range of the 210, making the total trip time much shorter because you skipped a fuel stop.

Some additional NA Mooney data points for your comparison to a 210.  Operating LOP, I used to get 150 KTAS at 8.5 GPH in an M20J and with my Ovation (M20R), 170 KTAS at 12.5 GPH.  If you run ROP, you will go faster at the expense of higher fuel burns.  

[Seanhoya]

I always flight planned for 135kts in a G model, which is known to be the slowest of Mooneys. Like the C model, it also uses the carbureted Lycoming O-360. It seems like 135 or 140kts would be a conservative estimate.

[cliffy]

A C model can vary its speed by 3-5 kts just by CG location alone.  Way FWD 135 kts  way aft  140 kts on average for most airplanes. 

[Hank]

My C can get 147 KTAS up high, 9000-10,000 msl depending on weather [temp and pressure]; rain will slow all piston engine traffic.

For endurance, I've flown 4:45 twice, landing with 11-12 gallons, which is another 1:15 -- 1:20, but I was already longer than I wanted, there is something to be said for standing up and walking around. I try to plan legs less than four hours. I generally get ~9 gph measured from fuel pump to fuel pump by my watch, running ROP.

For comparison, plan a couple of flights using my data above and something for the 210. Be sure to subtract required fuel and reserves, and see how much "usable" load you have for the flights. My C tops out at 312 lbs. fuel when filled to the caps, I generally leave 1/2" for expansion so round it off at 300 lb. My useful load is 970, so I can take myself and my favorite 470 lb of people and stuff with me regardless of fuel level. I've only had to monitor fuel on one trip, four guys on a day trip, and I was limited to 34 gallons, almost 4 hours or 3 hours flying plus IFR reserves.

Happy hunting!

[CChris]

IMO the planes you mentioned were designed for different missions. It is like comparing a light sports car with an SUV.

If you are looking for a plane to fly efficiently and do not plan to travel with 4 adults the M20C might be a good choice.
I am usually not in a rush, so I fly at 135kts burning 8.5 GPH, but in the right conditions it can fly at 150kts if pushed a little harder.

If I were you I would plan some of the trips I expect to do and decide whether the difference in flight time is that significant. This may contribute to your decision making process.

Good luck. Choosing and finding a good plane is a lengthy but exciting journey. 

[Hank]

On 10/18/2023 at 12:14 PM, CChris said:

IMO the planes you mentioned were designed for different missions. It is like comparing a light sports car with an SUV.

If you are looking for a plane to fly efficiently and do not plan to travel with 4 adults the M20C might be a good choice.
I am usually not in a rush, so I fly at 135kts burning 8.5 GPH, but in the right conditions it can fly at 150kts if pushed a little harder.

If I were you I would plan some of the trips I expect to do and decide whether the difference in flight time FUEL is that significant. This may contribute to your decision making process.

Good luck. Choosing and finding a good plane is a lengthy but exciting journey. 

FTFY . . . .

[CChris]

You are right. Fuel here plays a much more relevant role - and the difference is going to be huge.
I mentioned FT since the OP seems to be mostly concerned about speed.

[Fritz1]

I had a G-model in the late 90s, did about 137 kt TAS original, with all the speed mods available at the time it did 155 kt TAS burning about 10.5 GPH in the 180HP Lycoming, the C will be a tad faster because it is shorter, the C is economical and frugal, the 210 is a totally different animal, carries more, much more expensive to operate

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Jrags said:

Hello, I'm looking to buy my first airplane.  I'm looking for a fast cross country machine and am torn between a C210 A or B model and a M20C.  I look at the specs on Tradeaplane and it shows a 158kt cruise for an M20C but when I downloaded a POH, it shows a 150 MPH cruise which is about 135kts.  I also found a Flightaware flight for an M20C I am looking at to buy and saw a 150MPH cruise in actual flight.  Yet I read that an early 210 is not as fast as a Mooney.  What am I missing here.

About 3 weeks ago you said "I'm picking up a 1965 M20C next week and Avemco quoted $916 for liability and $3,767 for $68k in hull coverage."  It sounds like you already made the decision and bought a plane....    "What am I missing here"??

Edited October 18, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Utah20Gflyer]

There are a lot of factors unique to each specific aircraft that are going to affect how fast it is.  Engine and prop condition, prop balance, paint job and maybe most important if it’s rigged correctly.   Also add speed mods and the only way to know exactly what it’s going to do is to fly it and see.  Some planes are surprisingly slow and other are faster than expected.  
 

How much weight you are carrying and how you set throttle, prop and mixture will change the outcome.  Because we all do things a little different it’s a bit of an apple and orange situation when comparing speeds.  
 

As a data point I plan for 145kts for cruise which will burn 8.5 gph at 10,500.   I lean to peak, WOT and 2400 rpm.   This is with a medium load.  1-2 people and moderate amount of fuel.  If I max out the weight on a hot bumpy day I will probably only see 135 kts,  if I’m down low at 6k and relatively light I can get a little better than 150kts at a rich setting, WOT and 2500 rpm which will burn 11 gph.  So depending on how I’m using the plane I see more than a 15 knot spread in cruise.   This may explain why some people post numbers that seem rather low and others rather fast for a given model.   
 

 

[JimB]

Just another unrelated data point that I have noticed in the used aircraft market. A 210 is going to cost a lot more to buy initially (for a comparably equipped aircraft), for maintenance and for operation (fuel and engine reserves)

[Oscar Avalle]

I get around 158 mph TAS, which translates into 137 kts at 7,000 to 8,000 feet. My fuel consumption is at that speed (about 73% power) 8.7 gph. If I go higher I can get the speet up a bit or less fuel. My main limitation are my CHTs. 

 

Oscar 

[Jrags]

I have a Citabria 7ECA I'm trading for the M20C.  However, the M20C deal has been delayed by the seller to "clean it up" which I find suspicious.   As a result, I'm starting to look around again.  I do have about 30 hours in a C210 and I really like flying them while I have yet to fly an M20C.   

[M20F]

If you got the money, buy the 210!

[Pinecone]

Just make sure you get the 210 gear inspected by someone who REALLY knows 210s.

There are issues that can get VERY expensive.

[LANCECASPER]

On 10/18/2023 at 11:28 AM, Jrags said:

Hello, I'm looking to buy my first airplane.  I'm looking for a fast cross country machine and am torn between a C210 A or B model and a M20C.  I look at the specs on Tradeaplane and it shows a 158kt cruise for an M20C but when I downloaded a POH, it shows a 150 MPH cruise which is about 135kts.  I also found a Flightaware flight for an M20C I am looking at to buy and saw a 150MPH cruise in actual flight.  Yet I read that an early 210 is not as fast as a Mooney.  What am I missing here.

That's a little like saying that I'm torn between a Miata and a woodgrain station wagon. M20C and C210 are two vastly different airplanes.

Any 210 is going to be expensive to maintain properly, especially the older ones. If I was looking for a 210 and speed,  it would be a '77 or newer turbo 210 with an intercooler. Expect maintenance and insurance to be roughly twice as much as an M20C. There are two kinds of 210s without the gear mod - those that have landed gear-up and those that will. The ones made without the gear doors or the ones that have been modified are the ones you should look at. (Watching the gear come down on a 210 is a little like watching a giraffe get up from a nap - a little awkward and uncoordinated.)

Do all of the research first and decide what airplane fits your mission the best - then look for the best one you can afford.

[Greg Ellis]

14 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

(Watching the gear come down on a 210 is a little like watching a giraffe get up from a nap - a little awkward and uncoordinated.)

 

Now that is funny...but true.

[kris_adams]

Not an expert on 210s but iirc the 210a (and maybe the b) is more like a 182RG, so comparing to a Mooney is not quite as far off from a mission perspective as a later (4+2, or 6 place) 210.  I certainly like the 210s and capabilities--the Mooney just matches me better for now. 

I've heard there are some critical landing gear parts that aren't (or weren't 5-6 years ago) available so in the case of mistaken or mechanical failure resulting in gear up, you have to go looking at salvage yards for them.  Not trying to scare anyone from the 210s.  A good friend of mine has a 210 and I really like them.

[DXB]

Stock C model is a 140kt machine.  A very well modded one can be 150kt+.   Totally different animal than a C210 in many ways, so rarely does one comparison shop between the two.

[Jrags]

The higher maintence costs of the 210 gear are a factor as well as the much higher fuel burn.  Ok, you have answered my question, no 150MPH is not the typical cruise speed unless you dial it back.  So even if my Citabria trade doesn't work out, I'm going to go M20C

[Jim Peace]

This is what I get. You can blow up the picture of the whole panel for the details. 1964 M20c midtime engine and recent prop overhaul 

[Ragsf15e]

9 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

This is what I get. You can blow up the picture of the whole panel for the details. 1964 M20c midtime engine and recent prop overhaul 

If 1 sensorcon is good, 2 is definitely better!

[Echo]

10 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

This is what I get. You can blow up the picture of the whole panel for the details. 1964 M20c midtime engine and recent prop overhaul 

That first photo is a stunner!  Wow, what an awesomely equipped vintage Mooney!