IFR equipment and capability

[Brandt]

Not an accident, but wow.  Start at the 6 minute mark.  It’s a Mooney.

https://archive.liveatc.net/kiad/KIAD-App-North-Arr-MULRR-Sep-29-2023-1630Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR3_ytGiBhBKw5QoFaohahuXnkm51JyslSNnYc8983TwHNmeTSbtQBF-9gQ_aem_AdUKwgsmWA7lo_XUfNIkg1pvE6u6EBGqpUWhUKl-szkOiepeEFH1rb5HxoNiGD14ckc

 

Flight Track. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7183V/history/20230929/1230Z/KXNX/KMRB

[Rwsavory]

Pilot was going to use his iPad to navigate the approach, but it died. The plane’s owner is not shown as IFR rated on the FAA site. Photo of panel shows an Stec a/p and a Garmin 430. I’m guessing he didn’t know how to use the Garmin for an approach.  Sounds like he was arguing with the controller a little, trying to cancel his IFR so he could scud run. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

JOSRU was the IAF for the RNAV rwy 8 approach.  It’s a little baffling if he did have an IFR gps in the plane that he couldn’t load an approach and navigate to the IAF.   If you are going to actually fly an illegal instrument approach with an IPad it would seem like a good idea to bring a charger and also maybe a back up device.  

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

Pilot was going to use his iPad to navigate the approach, but it died. The plane’s owner is not shown as IFR rated on the FAA site. Photo of panel shows an Stec a/p and a Garmin 430. I’m guessing he didn’t know how to use the Garmin for an approach.  Sounds like he was arguing with the controller a little, trying to cancel his IFR so he could scud run. 

Either not rated or very recently rated and not yet showing up. If you check out Flightaware, the approach on the next leg does not appear to be any better.

[Sue Bon]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

If you check out Flightaware, the approach on the next leg does not appear to be any better.

On Topic: That was painful to listen to and I am glad that he survived with his skills and BKN 016.

Off Topic: In Flightaware, I clicked on Aircraft Type Photos and found this beaut!

 

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

On Topic: That was painful to listen to and I am glad that he survived with his skills and BKN 016.

Off Topic: In Flightaware, I clicked on Aircraft Type Photos and found this beaut!

 

Not particularly germane to this conversation, but the other Mooney (N252WT) is a Rocket I looked at.

[Sue Bon]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Not particularly germane to this conversation, but the other Mooney (N252WT) is a Rocket I looked at.

When I saw the WT, I thought of @RoundTwo and how Whiskey Tango sounds like another fun hobby  

[Fly Boomer]

19 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

When I saw the WT, I thought of @RoundTwo and how Whiskey Tango sounds like another fun hobby  

I have considered some of those N-numbers like "Alpha Foxtrot" or "Alpha Romeo".

[PeteMc]

GREAT PATIENCE on Controller's part!  I'd buy him a beer any time! (Anyone know who he is or his Operating Initials?)

Wonder what the FSDO ultimately did? 

 

[Jim Peace]

This stuff happens all the time....

A person will spend over 100k, 200k 500k  on a plane but will do anything they can to not put a desent USB charger onboard...dont even ask about a monoxide detector...

Of course he will say its not his fault....

[201Steve]

This guy has never flown an approach in his life. The iPad thing was just the bs. I’m far from an expert of ifr flying but folks like this make me feel excellent about it. 

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, 201Steve said:

This guy has never flown an approach in his life. The iPad thing was just the bs.

You may be right....  But I also wonder if he's an IFR newbie or someone that just barely keeps current and when they lost the plate they lost all "smarts" and confidence.  Also wouldn't surprise me if they never learned or, again, doesn't train enough to know how to load the approach actually on the GPS, he just loaded it in the iPad and sent it to the GPS.

Hope the FSDO has a LONG talk with him and requires some serious training.  We don't know, but there easily could have been passengers onboard.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by PeteMc

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, PeteMc said:

GREAT PATIENCE on Controller's part!  I'd buy him a beer any time! (Anyone know who he is or his Operating Initials?)

Wonder what the FSDO ultimately did? 

 

"Ultimately?" This happened 3 days ago.

There's nothing to suggest the FSDO was even notified. I figure the controller was too concerned about his safety to toss in a Brasher warning. But I am hoping the controller reported it. There may be a reasonable pilot-end explanation for what happened but if the guy is not instrument rated he should be violated and if he is, there should be mandatory retraining if not a 709 ride. If you check Flightaware, you'll see the approach in the next leg was no better.

 

[larrynimmo]

Something I would like to mention is that (while training for instrument) when I was flying one day to join friends for breakfast and there was a solid marine layer I debated getting an IFR clearance…but ultimately I turned around and flew back to my home airport.

there is a saying…”a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous”

after getting my ticket, I still had several approaches that didn’t go well because I entered unusual handling…my second real approach, ATC had me 3,000’ above the FAF and vectored me almost directly to that point at a 90 degree angle intersect, set up for a LPV, and ATC tells me to “join the localizer”while getting beat up in the soup….so I tried to program for the ILS, and guess what I blew through that intersect and was redirected

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, PeteMc said:

You may be right....  But I also wonder if he's an IFR newbie or someone that just barely keeps current and when they lost the plate they lost all "smarts" and confidence.  Also wouldn't surprise me if they never learned or, again, doesn't train enough to know how to load the approach actually on the GPS, he just loaded it in the iPad and sent it to the GPS.

Assuming the owner was the pilot, he's either a newbie or not rated at all. The Registry does not show an instrument rating. I guess a newbie could get this flustered over the loss of a chart.

 

[midlifeflyer]

3 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

Something I would like to mention is that (while training for instrument) when I was flying one day to join friends for breakfast and there was a solid marine layer I debated getting an IFR clearance…but ultimately I turned around and flew back to my home airport.

there is a saying…”a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous”

after getting my ticket, I still had several approaches that didn’t go well because I entered unusual handling…my second real approach, ATC had me 3,000’ above the FAF and vectored me almost directly to that point at a 90 degree angle intersect, set up for a LPV, and ATC tells me to “join the localizer”while getting beat up in the soup….so I tried to program for the ILS, and guess what I blew through that intersect and was redirected

That kind of thing definitely happens. (hopefully, you learned how to handle that since ;)) And I've seen pilots during IPCs offer to terminate when their iPad overheated (I refuse to let them). But ultimately this was a marginal VFR day with good ceilings once he got down, and the controller worked real hard to make it very easy. Vectored him from way out for a straight in approach. Literally all he had to do was load the approach with VTF and follow the vectors to interception. Couldn't. Really couldn't even fly the vectors. 

The controller also kept asking the pilot what help he needed. The only answer the pilot gave was to offer to cancel IFR and scud run. Thats a major training issue if he's rated -  he really sounded like a VFR pilot who decided to file IFR but expected to be able to cancel at the end. 

[haymak3r]

I am a freshly minted Instrument pilot, and that was very painful to listen to  why would he not have any way to even charge his ipad, let alone have a backup like his phone to use... Not to mention, he should have easily been able to load the approach with his GPS navigator. That is scary that there are pilots out there taking those risks. 

[Jim Peace]

31 minutes ago, haymak3r said:

I am a freshly minted Instrument pilot, and that was very painful to listen to  why would he not have any way to even charge his ipad, let alone have a backup like his phone to use... Not to mention, he should have easily been able to load the approach with his GPS navigator. That is scary that there are pilots out there taking those risks. 

he does not know what he does not know...so to these types of pilots, in their heads they are not taking risks.....but you can be damn sure we all pay for their mistakes in premiums.....

[haymak3r]

Agreed 100%

[PeteMc]

9 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

There's nothing to suggest the FSDO was even notified.

I don't know ATC requirements, but the controller mentioned they were "discussing it" and "not sure if it is legal."  It wouldn't shock me if  the Manager was whom he was discussing it with, but even if it was two controllers, there was the discussion.  So my gut tells me they're required, but someone would need to have a controller weigh in.

 

[PeteMc]

17 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

but will do anything they can to not put a desent USB charger onboard.

The iPad could easily have overheated.  Not everyone's iPad will overheat, but it is a known issue.  Especially if they leave them in a case where it can't cool properly.  Also could have been an outright hardware failure.  How it "failed" we'll probably never know.

 

[Ibra]

On 10/1/2023 at 8:25 AM, Utah20Gflyer said:

If you are going to actually fly an illegal instrument approach with an IPad it would seem like a good idea to bring a charger and also maybe a back up device.  

It would be good to have tried it in well equipped aircraft with an instructor or rated pilot in actual conditions, there are plenty of nice ideas and brilliant toys out there, however, one can’t know the limitations of a backup method without “testing it in safe environment” 

An iPad could be useful to go as low as LNAV minima, however, that will not work the first time in bumpy clouds when human factors kick in…

It’s also a shame why lot of equipment in aircraft are not used, I was flying with someone in G1000 C182, he was used iPad all the time and DCT button, he can’t load a procedure, hook to autopilot or even set an OBS, his argument was that he was “VFR only for now” and “getting IFR rating is too demanding”, I suggested he gets lot of instrument time (even without counting it toward rating), it has to be up to the point that he should be able to fly safe approach in real conditions (they may not be legal but there should be no doubt that he can land safely) 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Ibra

[DXB]

Yikes, probably much more that's going wrong here besides an ipad losing charge. However it does affirm my decision to carry to separate ipad minis with chartes up to date and their own charging hookups at all times. Kudos to the controller.

[midlifeflyer]

14 minutes ago, DXB said:

Yikes, probably much more that's going wrong here besides an ipad losing charge. However it does affirm my decision to carry to separate ipad minis with chartes up to date and their own charging hookups at all times. Kudos to the controller.

The loss of the chart should be a non-event.

[hammdo]

I print mine out for intended, home, and alternate. I then use a satin laminate so I can write on them in pencil. When a new change occurs, I do a new one…

I have iPad, iPhone, stratus, and printed charts.