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Is it legal to fly with a front seat removed?

FloridaMan

By FloridaMan
in General Mooney Talk

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FloridaMan Grand Master

FloridaMan

Posted
Posted

I need to carry a dog crate with me and it’s an absolute pain to get it in the back seat. If I remove the passenger seat, it would be super simple. I can’t find a definitive reference. If it and the dog were a front passenger, I’d be in CG limits, and if they were in the baggage compartment, same. I suspect it's probably ok since the seat is so easy to remove, but if I get ramp checked, I’d like to be able to cite chapter and verse if challenged. 

DCarlton Veteran

DCarlton

Posted
Posted (edited)

Good Question.  I’ve done it several times without consideration to “legality”.  Will be interesting to see what the experts say.  

Edited by DCarlton
AndreiC Rising Star

AndreiC

Posted
Posted

I flew without the copilot seat a couple of times while I was working on the interior of my plane, and once mentioned this to the main pilot at our field, an old weathered guy who always does everything by the book. He said that if I wanted to continue this way, I should calculate a new Weight and Balance for the situation without the seat, and keep that document in the plane. He said that would look very well to an inspector, show that I thought about the issue and was careful about it. 

  • Like 2
Fly Boomer Grand Master

Fly Boomer

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

I need to carry a dog crate with me and it’s an absolute pain to get it in the back seat. If I remove the passenger seat, it would be super simple. I can’t find a definitive reference. If it and the dog were a front passenger, I’d be in CG limits, and if they were in the baggage compartment, same. I suspect it's probably ok since the seat is so easy to remove, but if I get ramp checked, I’d like to be able to cite chapter and verse if challenged. 

I can't cite chapter and verse, but I see it done a fair amount.  And not temporarily -- seat has been out for years.  That said, ramp checks are rare, so no idea if it would stand up to scrutiny.

EricJ Grand Master

EricJ

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

I flew without the copilot seat a couple of times while I was working on the interior of my plane, and once mentioned this to the main pilot at our field, an old weathered guy who always does everything by the book. He said that if I wanted to continue this way, I should calculate a new Weight and Balance for the situation without the seat, and keep that document in the plane. He said that would look very well to an inspector, show that I thought about the issue and was careful about it. 

^^ This.    If you have a weight-and-balance sheet showing this configuration (seat removed) then you're golden.    This is the same as removing the rear seat for cargo space, you just need a W&B sheet showing that configuration.    They're not hard to do, and it'll cover any potential issues.

  • Like 5
201Mooniac Mentor

201Mooniac

Posted
Posted

I had a need a number of years ago to fly without the front seat in place and I asked Tom Rouch at Top Gun about it and he said it was fine as long as there was a W&B with the seat removed.  He did the paperwork for me and I probably still have it around somewhere though my W&B must have changed due to avionics updates since then.

Yetti Grand Master

Yetti

Posted
Posted

Weigh the seat.   Make the deleted lbs part of the W&B calculation.  The Pilots Operating Manual tells you how to increase the Cargo Area by telling how to remove the rear seat backs.

In Alaska the planes carry Several Weight and Balance sheets depending on cargo or passengers that they had signed off by an A&P.   The FAA was annoyed that the pilots were removing and replacing the seats, but if you are not turning a wrench to do it then a seat is probably the same as a gopro mount.  Removing doors is probably a bit more regulatory sketchy.

  • Like 1
Utah20Gflyer Experienced

Utah20Gflyer

Posted
Posted

I’ve often heard of the advice regarding multiple weight and balances but I really don’t understand the need.  If I put in a negative number representing the weight of the front seat in my normal weight and balance then I have an accurate weight and balance.   Seems like people are really overthinking this issue.  Not saying the FAA won’t make your life difficult. I’m just saying the math is pretty obvious. 

  • Like 3
N201MKTurbo Grand Master

N201MKTurbo

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I’ve often heard of the advice regarding multiple weight and balances but I really don’t understand the need.  If I put in a negative number representing the weight of the front seat in my normal weight and balance then I have an accurate weight and balance.   Seems like people are really overthinking this issue.  Not saying the FAA won’t make your life difficult. I’m just saying the math is pretty obvious. 

You are absolutely right. You don't need to redo your equipment list and empty weight. It would be good to have just a W&B calculation sheet for the flight that shows the moments removed for the seats, just so you can prove you are in the envelope.

Yetti Grand Master

Yetti

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You might be a red neck pilot if you have flown a plane sitting on a Home Depot bucket….

I was going to go there, but refrained.

N201MKTurbo Grand Master

N201MKTurbo

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I was going to go there, but refrained.

Doesn't work in a Mooney, good for a Cessna. The Mooney needs the end of a railroad tie sawed off with a chainsaw.

  • Haha 1
MikeOH Grand Master

MikeOH

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You might be a red neck pilot if you have flown a plane sitting on a Home Depot bucket….

Does a Lowe's bucket count?:D

MikeOH Grand Master

MikeOH

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

That is a sad commentary on FAA ignorance and abuse of power.  

Sadly, lately we HAVE been getting all the government we are paying for:angry:

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted

There are actually two considerations, first is W&B which has been covered, but in some aircraft, not a Mooney the seat is part of aircraft structure, not common but there are some, the one or two that I’ve seen don’t move.

The reference article, there was obviously more to that story, had to have been. 

I’ve flown with only the pilots seat many times in different aircraft, even removed doors a time or two. 

I had to remove both the CP seat and back seats from the Maule to fit these helium tanks in.

”cargo” is often flown in Maules and Cherokee 6’s, I had a friend at the Army test activity that flew coffins in his Cherokee 6. People that die away from home are often flown home for burial apparently as he never wanted for business, and I’m sure to get a coffin in the seats had to come out.

 

 

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exM20K Veteran

exM20K

Posted
Posted

In the distant past, I recall Mooney print ads showing a Bravo in “Executive” configuration, with the suit resplendent in the right rear seat, reading the WSJ, co pilot seat removed, and pilot focusing on the flying stuff. 
 

In the 231, we flew with the right front seat out all the time when our first was an infant.  It made loading so much easier. And as @Utah20Gflyer points out, it’s a simple matter to enter a negative weight at that station.

The Acclaim has AmSafe airbags in the front, so I’m a little nervous about removing the seat now. I’d hate to have it go Kaboom during removal or reinstallation  

-dan

A64Pilot Grand Master

A64Pilot

Posted
Posted
25 minutes ago, exM20K said:

In the distant past, I recall Mooney print ads showing a Bravo in “Executive” configuration, with the suit resplendent in the right rear seat, reading the WSJ, co pilot seat removed, and pilot focusing on the flying stuff. 
 

In the 231, we flew with the right front seat out all the time when our first was an infant.  It made loading so much easier. And as @Utah20Gflyer points out, it’s a simple matter to enter a negative weight at that station.

The Acclaim has AmSafe airbags in the front, so I’m a little nervous about removing the seat now. I’d hate to have it go Kaboom during removal or reinstallation  

-dan

On the Amsafe equipped aircraft there is a simple wire connection that has to be unplugged before you remove the seat, that will keep the system from deploying, it’s different than an auto airbags in that they aren’t pyrotechnic, they have a high pressure nitrogen tank that inflates the bags. 

You’re right to be concerned if you leave it connected and drop the seat the bags could deploy. It’s been a few years since I installed any but doubt they have changed

  • Like 1
aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

There is more way to skin a can and more than one way to carry a dog.

So I had considerations of the same question - and I like to fly with the dog in a crate - 

have you considered soft crates?  These are collapsable crates that are super easy to put into the airplane and back seat collapse and then pop open like an umbrella once inside/

There are lots of models and lots of levels of sturdiness and for all size dogs. I figure for this application sturdy isn't as important because its just a matter of convincing the dog not to roam around.

Eg:

https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/sportpet-designs-travel-pop-up-crate-red-for-dogs

or

https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/go-pet-club-folding-soft-green-dog-crate

 

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