Big Brother Landing Fees

[FlyingDude]

https://www.vector-us.com/planepass

Just saw on facebook...  They install cameras at airports and they send you landing bills in the mail...

Becoming more and more like Europe...  Making GA unaffordable one step at a time.  I'm already sending a note to AOPA.  

[Pinecone]

I hope the keep an updated list of airports with their system.

So I can avoid them.

[FlyingDude]

I hope this turns into a flop like the Chicago red-light-runner camera systems.  They projected ginormous revenue but in the end people made sure they never run the red light ...

It did achieve the goal of increasing safety, as was initially advertised.

Only problem: that was not the real goal...

 

[Mooneymite]

Oh, great!  Another nail in the general aviation coffin.

Interesting that one of the endorsements is from the manager of the HTO airport....certainly one of the most hostile airports to GA.

Unfortunately, I can see this being very popular with many county airport boards.

[RoundTwo]

I landed at KRYY at night to drop off my CFII and got a $10 bill in the mail.

[hais]

That's a great safety idea : they just need to swap the camera for a radar trap, and everyone will start to observe their Vref, which should eliminate all those bouncy landings 

[Bolter]

I have been tagged by these guys, at KSMO (Santa Monica) in 2017.  One of the few public airports with a landing fee for everyone, as part of the city's effort to get rid of the airport.

I did nothing at the airport.  Just got a mysterious envelope in the mail some weeks later.  They must rely on your FAA registration being up to date, but recently that has been way behind schedule.  Slow bureaucracy can be your friend if you recently updated your address.

[FlyingDude]

In Italy they installed camera systems every 5km on the highways called "Tutor". That would calculate your average speed and you'd get tickets in the mail. Extremely unpopular. Objectionable improvements in safety. They found a loophole in its patent and outlawed the thing... Here we can try to outlaw that  thing, too... 

Can adsb or cameras be used to "collect fees?" 

I've written to aopa. Any lawyers here? What's the legitimacy of demanding such payments? What happens if one doesn't pay? Are airports really in need of this or is it pure greed?

C'mon guys, let's fight this.

 

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

https://www.vector-us.com/planepass

Just saw on facebook...  They install cameras at airports and they send you landing bills in the mail...

Becoming more and more like Europe...  Making GA unaffordable one step at a time.  I'm already sending a note to AOPA.  

I wonder if that works with 2-inch registration numbers?

[Greg Ellis]

Take a look at the website of all the products they have to offer.  Are these guys anti GA or what.... what did GA ever do to them....

Planepass (which does use ADSB to ID your airplane to send you a bill)

Planepass Overflight (to track you flying through certain airspace to allow you to be billed for flying in such airspace; I guess this is in Europe maybe)

VNOMS (allows public to register noise complaints for airports)

Vantage (Automated aircraft ID and tracking, supposedly better than radar...)

What the hell??!!!!!  They say it is at 80+ airports around the world.  I think that if they have access to this kind of information then it is only right for them to post the airports where these products are located so we can avoid them.

 

[dzeleski]

I’m stuck with this crap. ISP, HWV, MTP, HTO/JPX, etc all have it. I gotta pay for the privilege of leaving my own home airport. $4.90 every time I leave.

I stopped going to MTP over the insane fee increase. 

[FlyingDude]

Guys, don't we have any lawyers on board?  This lowly engineer only has opinions.  However, I have some questions:

- can they legally charge that fee?  I cannot charge you guys for the privilege of reading my comments, for example.  Or for the privilege of walking on the easement in front of my house.  What are their legal bases for charging these fees?

- how do such revenue play into their federal grants and taxation scheme?  you're either non-profit or for-profit, right?  

- are the runways already paid for by other funds?  if FAA paid for the runway through taxes, can they really charge you for landing?  once I was told that some places charge it specifically as "overnight parking fees" for this very reason.  runway is paid by city/state/faa but the tarmac and shack are not.

- this technology that this company is using. Is it legally licensed?  On one of my products I wanted to use an open-source image recognition program and legal informed me that it's not that easy.  Open-source things are free when you do no-profit stuff.  Once you want to make money out of it, then things change A LOT.  

Any lawyers out there?

Also, bitching and whining on mooneyspace won't change anything.  thought and prayers never work.  So, I've contacted AOPA and will contact EAA today.  Please do the same.  Please contact your governor, senator in states where this is happening.  Let's even contact airlines...  They're moaning about pilot shortage.  Pilots don't grow on trees.  If they kill GA, they kill their pilot farm...  Remember the accident by some pilots from certain countries with no GA: they learned to fly like a video game and stalled the plane on a visual approach...

[cliffy]

Ya know folks-

Many years ago I predicted that this would happen when ADSB came in.

Governments would start tracking every flight

Everyone wanted a "fish finder" then but now-

I hate to say I told  you so 

When we couldn't defeat the "ramp fees" and even get off a publicly funded airport without paying a fee

what makes you think you will defeat this fee scheme?

You're a captive audience at any city/county airport once you land and prime for fleecing. 

[FlyingDude]

@cliffy you were not the only one. Many people did. They all said that free wx update was the shut-up candy and decoy for you to keep it on.

If they shut down the Tutor in Italy... Anything is possible. 

That thing has government backing and generated tons of revenue. Yet... It's dead...

Have you contacted aopa? 

[FlyingDude]

@1980Mooney thanks for the insight.  I've driven on toll roads for 15 years in Italy and France, stuck in traffic, average quality, and drove on freeways in Germany, in super quality.  So, "suck up and pay up if you want service" does not chime with me...

Though you bring up struggling airports, I have spoken with 4 airport managers so far about this topic (no, not since yesterday when this thing riled me up.  I know 2 personally and the other 2 were there when I landed.)  All 4 mentioned the profitability of their airports between hangar fees and fuel profits.  One of them, actually, where fuel was 50c cheaper than the rest, said that her airport does put a profit on fuel, but other airports are simply overdoing it.  Maybe someone (AOPA for example) should audit all airports' balance sheets to see where they stand.  We might indeed have to cough up to keep our half mile asphalt stretches that launch us to the world, or we might understand who's in need and who's surfing it.

As for Canada.  I'm sorry, but do NOT take such countries as an example.  It's like wanting to lower your wages here becasue they have sweat shops and child labor elsewhere.  In Italy, where I learned to fly and flew for 8 years, flying is seen as rich men's hobby.  Many, many people have boats that cost a lot more than planes (with the taxes), yet a boat is normal but a plane is not.  It's just that some countries are favorable to GA, others are not.

If I'm such a burden on ATC, I should just stop speaking with them...  I don't always go into C or D airports...  I can always fly over or around them.  When I speak, it's because I don't want to be pest.  So many pilots told me to overfly Chicago B at 10,500' without speaking with them.  I can and it's my legal right.  I don't, because I want to be a nice guy.   

[FlyingDude]

Well, this is what I just got from AOPA:

Thanks for your email.  Yes, that is completely legal.  Airports are free to charge landing fees and can use human observation, cameras, or other means to record them.  Vector Airport Systems is at many airports.  If you have been charged in error that definitely would not be acceptable and you should reach out to Vector Systems to correct it.

All the best,

#####
Senior Aviation Technical Specialist

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

I hope this turns into a flop like the Chicago red-light-runner camera systems.  They projected ginormous revenue but in the end people made sure they never run the red light ...

It did achieve the goal of increasing safety, as was initially advertised.

Only problem: that was not the real goal...

 

Actually not.  The cities with them resorted to shortening the yellows to force people to run the red light.  But instead, they would heavily brake to avoid that, and get rear ended.  They actually INCREASED the mishap rate.

[FlyingDude]

4 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Actually not.  The cities with them resorted to shortening the yellows to force people to run the red light.  But instead, they would heavily brake to avoid that, and get rear ended.  They actually INCREASED the mishap rate.

Now, that happened in Italy and then they outlawed that and I think not only did they refund all of the tickets collected, they even had to pay some penalty.  They made sure that the duration of the yellow is commensurate with the speed limit.  

But of course, in many parts of Europe they lowered speed limits by 10km/h for "increased safety".  In this case, it's harder to fight that...  

[FlyingDude]

@1980Mooney I hope we all agree that capitalism does not mean that "anything goes as long as the government is not involved." That's anarchy, actually.  Capitalism is against monopolies and we have antitrust to prevent that.  Canada's privatization of their ATC is the same as issuing a tax for it.  It's a monopoly: not like I can choose between 2 different routes to go from A to B and factor in the cost of ATC in my decision, the way I would factor in fuel prices along my route.  Of course, the choice becomes between going and not going at all.  

Of course mine is a knee-jerk emotional response.  However, one time one of my colleagues interjected "I don't want to pay for your hobby" when he discovered that airports get funding.  Then I told him "I don't want to pay for your temple.  Is it paying property tax?"...  Same way, I see city golf courses, city boat launches, DIA (Detroit Institute of Arts, where I haven't had a chance to set foot in years, although my county taxes finance it), and many many parks and museums where I just don't have the time to go, etc. etc....  This singling of aviation as the freeloader or as the rich men's game really bothers me.  

 

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Now, that happened in Italy and then they outlawed that and I think not only did they refund all of the tickets collected, they even had to pay some penalty.  They made sure that the duration of the yellow is commensurate with the speed limit.  

But of course, in many parts of Europe they lowered speed limits by 10km/h for "increased safety".  In this case, it's harder to fight that...  

There was one city in Ohio that got their yellow lights down to around 3 seconds.  Since the total reaction time to respond to unanticipated events is over 2.5 seconds, that was insane.

BTW, there is only ONE proper scientific study linking speed to number of mishaps.  And it is the DIFFERENCE in speed, not the absolute speed that causes mishaps.  So granny doing 50 MPH while the rest of traffic is doing 70 causes just as many mishaps as the moron doing 85+

[FlyingDude]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

BTW, there is only ONE proper scientific study linking speed to number of mishaps.  And it is the DIFFERENCE in speed, not the absolute speed that causes mishaps.  So granny doing 50 MPH while the rest of traffic is doing 70 causes just as many mishaps as the moron doing 85+

Uhm, why is 85+ moron?  In places where people are taught to drive properly, where cars undergo inspection (not only environmental moneygrabber, but put it on dyno and check brakes, ABS, ensure minumum tire tread kind of inspection), even unlimited speeds are actually safe.  Stay on the right, use the left lane to pass.  Very simple.

Of course, if one is also texting, doing make-up (I noticed so many women applying lipstick while moving...  I looked, becasue the way they were waving got me concerned), clapping hands while singing and just being a passenger in the driver seat... While driving unstable cars on worn out treads with skyhigh CGs on marshmellow shocks ... I just wish there was a tram / train / subway so I won't deal with them at all...

[exM20K]

17 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Actually not.  The cities with them resorted to shortening the yellows to force people to run the red light.  But instead, they would heavily brake to avoid that, and get rear ended.  They actually INCREASED the mishap rate.

More importantly, in Chicagoland, the red light cameras feed the business of Chicagoland politicians: graft.

-dan

[exM20K]

These sort of fee collection systems are important to airport funding in many cases.  At our small Florida strip, there are landing and parking fees due, yet many don’t pay. someone from the HOA has to note the landing/parking tail number.  Often, that won’t happen because people have jobs with other duties. If the tail number is not blocked, yes, you can find the landing on a flight tracking system.  Then, someone from the HOA has to track down the tail number and mail out a bill, hoping the owner pays.  If the tail number is blocked, here is no good way to discover the landing or to whom to send the bill.

 being charged a landing fee at the home drone is a separate issue.  This is merely the collection mechanism, and in many cases, it is more efficient and effective than having a human being do the tasks manually.

-dan

[cliffy]

20 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

@cliffy you were not the only one. Many people did. They all said that free wx update was the shut-up candy and decoy for you to keep it on.

If they shut down the Tutor in Italy... Anything is possible. 

That thing has government backing and generated tons of revenue. Yet... It's dead...

Have you contacted aopa? 

Have I contacted AOPA? HA!  I had a "conversation" with Baker years ago at OSH about ramp fees and just where has that gotten? AOPA can't actually do anything in this regard. They can only "ask". 

The FAA even said that the "free stuff" was put into ADSB so that the entire idea would be accepted by GA (and buy in with their own money)

Without the "free stuff" they knew GA would baulk loud and clear and kill the entire idea of ADSB OR the FAA would have to FUND the entire cost themselves!! Remember this is/was  a replacement for ATC RADAR and its hysteresis in target location. ADSB was designed for increasing the through put (movin' metal)  at the big airports so airliners could be stacked together closer than they could with RADAR alone. It was never a GA  thing but only ancillary to the bigger picture. They needed GA in the program to make the airline side work.  Yet many in GA wanted the "fish finder".  A "poor mans" TCAS.

As a past Airport Manager of a Part 139 airline airport I can attest to the fact that many airports that "lose money" it happens because of poor management. And it doesn't have to be placed on the backs of GA for the total support of the airport. 

Many studies have been done showing the value of an airport to the citizens of the sponsoring agency whether it is a city or county. An airport is vital the economy of each entity. One only has to look at how many city owned airports there are in Texas that supply good pilot rooms with one or more Courtesy Cars for pilots to use to "live on the local economy" while at that town. They only charge tie down and a fuel price for the use of the airport. These entities see the value to the city for the airport. You only see the landing fees at airports in larger cities where they are trying to squeeze out every drop of blood trying to make the airport a profit center without taking into account the input to the economy that the airport provides.

In my case we had a city manager who wanted to close the airport due to cost for the city. This is  in a city that had one 2 lane road in and out and an airport to support the city coffers that was totally dependent on tourism for income. We got 1 MILLION dollars a year from the FAA for the airport so the surfaces were taken care of and only the terminal needed city funds. I proposed a ticket tax as we had 10s of thousands of passenger sales every year (allowable under FAA rules) but that idea was declined as "they didn't want to do that and closing the airport was a better solution". 

The city manager didn't last long nor did I. 

Many forget that we pay a TAX in every gas purchase for the support of airports around the country. THAT is our contribution the air infrastructure in the USA. The airlines pay on a different scale BECAUSE their usage is higher! Let's not forget this fact! We don't get off free anywhere in aviation. 
 

David Wayne Hooks? I was just there a few days ago. They don't charge a landing fee but they do have a ramp fee waived with 5 gallon fuel purchase. Quite reasonable. 

In fact I flew there from St George Utah KSGU and other than towers at KDWH and Double Eagle (ABQ)and on two occasions to verify activity in a couple of MOAs, I talked to no one in ATC. Monitored ATC but never communicated, never needed to.

We need to understand that there is a difference between "landing fees" and "ramp fees". If an airport wants to charge a "landing fee" to use the runway they have that right and it should be published. BUT if the airport is 'FREE" to use yet the only operator charges a fee to exit the airport THAT is a problem with me. Again.      I mentioned this many years ago right here. Its no different than someone setting up a gate on the interstate off ramp to a city and charging a fee to exit the highway into the city. The highway is paid with Federal funds that I can use buy paying my gas taxes but I can't get off the highway without another fee to a private entity that I don 't need?

I don't need fancy furniture or cookies. Just a bathroom and a gate and many city run airports have just that and do fine. Big city ideas bring on big city fees. 

The biggest issue right now is the consolidation of FBOs around the country into one of the big three. They are interested in big iron jet fuel sales and don't really want to service GA. Its not a good trend for us.

 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

If an airport charges landing fees, it should have to make a sign saying so that is visible to anyone landing there from a distance of, say about 3 miles, and publish that fact in all FLIP.