What is happening in Kerrville?

[Will.iam]

My plan is when insurance is too high just get a J-3 cub and insure for liability only. At $30amu for the plane i would pay that or more in 10 years anyways if i could be fully insured when I’m old. By that time the joy of flying will be the takeoffs and landings more than the journeys and if i had to do an off airport landing much more survivable going in at 30mph than 65 kts. 

[A64Pilot]

Funny thing about a Cub, if we are talking Legend Cub etc they burn 6 GPH and cruise I think 80 kts?

At 21 squared and LOP I burn 6 GPH at 120 Kts, so the Cub has the same burn rate but due to speed burns 150% of the fuel as my Mooney to go the same distance

At 6 GPH and 80 kts Cub gets 13.3 MPG Even if I fly 130 kts at 8 GPH I get 16.25 to the Cubs 13.3 MPG.

Heck even at 10.5 GPH and 155 kts I’m getting 14.7 MPG, so at any speed I get better fuel milage in my J than a Cub.
But you can burn car gas in the Cub.

When I ran the numbers it just amazed me either how inefficient a Cub was or how efficient a Mooney is

[Hank]

57 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

When I ran the numbers it just amazed me either how inefficient a Cub was or how efficient a Mooney is

It's the aerodynamic efficiency of the Mooney. 

The Cub is slightly more aerodynamic than a brick, but only slightly. Compare descent rates in feet per nautical mile with the throttle pulled to idle . . . .

[mike_elliott]

On 6/22/2023 at 2:20 PM, Danb said:

LittleDipper , I said that same thing two years ago. The crap hit the fan about a year ago when my agent notified me of what to expect and OLD Republic notified me I’d most likely have to fly with another pilot or get a fixed gear plane, we looked around didn’t like any other planes being pissed off I sold a beautiful Bravo only to later be notified Brown would insure myMooney if I got an annual IPC, I then bought an Acclaim. I’m 75this year, Terry didn’t misspeak. That’s where he came up with that. I used Mike for my IPC and transition to the Acclaim. 

And Dan, you were more proficient than some I have flown with half your age! Good job knocking the rust off and mastering your new beauty!

[Tx_Aggie]

On 6/18/2023 at 9:34 AM, Alan Maurer said:

I often wonder if there is any possibility that M20 production could start again?  Can't be that everyone wants a Cirrus. 

Does anyone have any news out of Kerrville?

Alan

Ovation N913ND

Who attended MooneyMax? What’s the recent word from Jonny?

[Rick Junkin]

20 hours ago, Hank said:

I see we have a misunderstanding here. In the world of aviation, "UFO" is the acronym for an organized group, the United Flying Octogenarians. Qualification for membership is based upon flying an aircraft as PIC on or after your 80th birthday. They may have a website / facebook page, but I'm not on facebook so I'm not sure.

Finally, a club I truly aspire to one day be a member of.

https://www.ufopilots.org

[A64Pilot]

I don’t think any RV except the -12 can get to LSA weight limits.

Maule tried it with their M-4 and ended up with a tail heavy pig that had pretty much zero useful load.

‘From what I’ve seen of most LSA’s is unless there is a need to fly one, stay away, they have a high accident rate for a reason.

Nose wheel RV’s have killed so many that there is a company that was formed to try to cure the problem, called “Anti-Splat”, RV’s it seems collapse tge nose gear quite often and when they do they go over on their back, breaking your neck or back it seems. RV’s don’t pogo and prop strike, they collapse the gear and the people often die.

I think @Parker_Woodruff was right most LSA’s are under built trying to get under the legal max weight and still be able to carry a pilot and fuel.

However it seems that the Seaplanes aren’t quite so under built, I think they are allowed higher weights?

I’ve considered LSA myself, but I’d want something like this https://superpetrelusa.com I think it’s much better built than a -12 myself, plus it’s an Amphib so lots more fun than a -12.

[toto]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I’ve considered LSA myself, but I’d want something like this https://superpetrelusa.com I think it’s much better built than a -12 myself, plus it’s an Amphib so lots more fun than a -12.

I’ll probably end up with a SeaRey sooner or later. I have about two hours in one, and they’re a hell of a lot of fun to fly.

[RoundTwo]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:58 AM, Tx_Aggie said:

Who attended MooneyMax? What’s the recent word from Jonny?

There was a 10 minute recorded video he did from overseas.

First priority is to become sustainable through parts production both Mooney and contract. He intimated that there is a deal that is about to close that will help greatly with the sustainability issue, no details given. 
They’re still struggling with third party part procurement and they are looking for ways to solve that.

That was about it in a nutshell.

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

First priority is to become sustainable through parts production both Mooney and contract. He intimated that there is a deal that is about to close that will help greatly with the sustainability issue, no details given. 
They’re still struggling with third party part procurement and they are looking for ways to solve that.

All that takes is cash up front in order to place economic size orders.....

[A64Pilot]

I just wish they could ship no back springs, that would seem to be a money maker.

Having been in his situation myself I assume they are on credit hold, but that’s just an assumption.

‘If so you first need money to zero your debt, then more money to order parts to sell.

Edited June 26, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Jeff_S]

I sure learned a lot about insurance and aging pilots while trying to figure out what's happening at the Mooney factory!

But I guess I'm closing in on the "aging pilot" category so the content was useful. Now, why did I come into room again?

ha!

[1980Mooney]

6 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

I sure learned a lot about insurance and aging pilots while trying to figure out what's happening at the Mooney factory!

But I guess I'm closing in on the "aging pilot" category so the content was useful. Now, why did I come into room again?

ha!

Well, it sort of actually makes sense… Because if Mooney  Corp were to actually build and sell new airplanes about the only ones that could afford to buy them would be “aging pilots”. ….The ones with $1 million in cash laying around. Mooney already demonstrated that they cannot make a profit pricing planes at $700,000 and $800,000 (base). And since all their costs have gone up for labor, materials, components, etc, they may not be able to make a profit even pricing at $1 million.

[hubcap]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:58 AM, 1980Mooney said:

All that takes is cash up front in order to place economic size orders.....

All it takes is cash…that’s hilarious. 

[A64Pilot]

17 hours ago, hubcap said:

All it takes is cash…that’s hilarious. 

It is however the truth.

Joke in aircraft manufacturing is it’s easy to make a million dollars, just start with two.

Depending on how big they are the fixed costs can eat you alive, I’m sure they aren’t foolish enough to buy liability insurance, but still paying for the building, payroll, power and water bill etc can eat you alive. Often you can cut a deal with the City or whoever to get property tax relief as they don’t want you going under because you employee their Citizens, sometimes you can get grants too, but there is a limit of course.

What often happens is at the end of the month there isn’t enough money to pay all the bills so you pay what you can, your suppliers often give you 90 days to pay, and if you don’t they put you on credit hold until you pay, so to order from them sometimes means clearing your debt, plus you may have to pay upfront, so for instance it’s possible that to get any no-back springs they may have to first pay x amount of money to get caught up, then x amount more to buy some to sell, the amount probably exceeds profits so there are no springs for awhile, they want to supply springs just they have to stay alive until they can, it’s a hand to mouth existence for a long time, maybe five years before you begin to see light.

Now if someone with a PMA came along they should be able to buy the springs and resell them, somebody like Univair for instance, but I suppose they haven’t because they don’t want to be a nail in Mooney’s coffin.

So us owners sit here hoping we can get parts from somebody, and can’t.

Edited June 28, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

On 6/22/2023 at 9:52 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

...and never know if a third might show up.

You do know that there are ways to prevent that from happening??????

Great meeting you at Mooney Max.

[Pinecone]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:58 AM, 1980Mooney said:

All that takes is cash up front in order to place economic size orders.....

Which for some parts should be easy to get large deposits or even full pre-payment.  I am sure that more than 50 (minimum order from Eaton) owners would be happy to pre-pay for a No Back Spring.  I would.

[Pinecone]

On 6/26/2023 at 5:30 PM, A64Pilot said:

I just wish they could ship no back springs, that would seem to be a money maker.

Having been in his situation myself I assume they are on credit hold, but that’s just an assumption.

‘If so you first need money to zero your debt, then more money to order parts to sell.

I talked to Frank Crawford about this at Mooney Max.  The bean counters don't want pay the front money to order 50 (minimum order number from Eaton).    I talked to Frank about why Mooney does not offer to order a bunch based on deposits or even pre-pay full price.  I would pay for one for them to order and have on my shelf.  I am sure that they could find more than 50 people to do so.  And invest the profit from those to order some for them to stock.  I am sure that many of the MSCs would order 1 or 2 for stock also.

[hubcap]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:15 AM, A64Pilot said:

It is however the truth.

Joke in aircraft manufacturing is it’s easy to make a million dollars, just start with two.

Depending on how big they are the fixed costs can eat you alive, I’m sure they aren’t foolish enough to buy liability insurance, but still paying for the building, payroll, power and water bill etc can eat you alive. Often you can cut a deal with the City or whoever to get property tax relief as they don’t want you going under because you employee their Citizens, sometimes you can get grants too, but there is a limit of course.

What often happens is at the end of the month there isn’t enough money to pay all the bills so you pay what you can, your suppliers often give you 90 days to pay, and if you don’t they put you on credit hold until you pay, so to order from them sometimes means clearing your debt, plus you may have to pay upfront, so for instance it’s possible that to get any no-back springs they may have to first pay x amount of money to get caught up, then x amount more to buy some to sell, the amount probably exceeds profits so there are no springs for awhile, they want to supply springs just they have to stay alive until they can, it’s a hand to mouth existence for a long time, maybe five years before you begin to see light.

Now if someone with a PMA came along they should be able to buy the springs and resell them, somebody like Univair for instance, but I suppose they haven’t because they don’t want to be a nail in Mooney’s coffin.

So us owners sit here hoping we can get parts from somebody, and can’t.

The problem is the ENORMOUS amounts of cash that it takes. Most people have no clue about how much money it takes.

Inventory is expensive. Inventory that doesn't move is unaffordable. Just to have 1 of every part for one airplane is hundreds of thousands of $$$$. How many dollars worth of inventory do you think Mooney should carry?

[Pinecone]

That is what the bean counters should count.  Look at past sales and REQUESTS to determine what parts are in demand and stock more of them.

For parts they make, when the get an order for one, make a few.  It takes longer to set up to make many parts than to actually make the part.  So leverage the sale of one to make 3 or more.  That way, the next order takes no time to fill.

And for vendor supplied parts, as I have mentioned before, offer owners and MSCs to pre-purchase those.  Like No Back Springs and Turbo Clamps.  I would buy one NBS and two turbo clamps TODAY, even with a lead time.  I don't want my plane down for 6 months waiting for one.

Another option for vendor parts is to publish the vendor and the vendor part number for parts they don't want to/can't stock.  I heard about a manufacturer that is doing that.  So if you need a throttle cable, you don't need to play owner produced games, just order ABC123 from the vendor directly.   This does cut into Mooney profit, but unless they are marking things WAY up, it saves them from having to deal with the receiving the order, processing the order, ordering the part, etc.

[PT20J]

I know for a fact that Mooney just finished a lot of ten nose gear legs. 

[GeeBee]

At the 2022 MooneyMax I asked Jonny directly about his concern that PMA parts might eat his lunch. He said they can't because Mooney owns the drawings. My impression is he/they don't know or considered how PMA works. People can begin reverse engineering parts and the show is over. McFarlane and Univair make a nice living off of PMA and worse for Mooney, they skim the cream of the most profitable parts. There needs to be a concerted effort by the factory to own the universe of Mooney parts if they are going to succeed. The entire supply chain needs to be reviewed and re-worked from the factory to the MSC's to the owners of Mooney aircraft if the enterprise is to survive. 

[1980Mooney]

11 hours ago, GeeBee said:

At the 2022 MooneyMax I asked Jonny directly about his concern that PMA parts might eat his lunch. He said they can't because Mooney owns the drawings. My impression is he/they don't know or considered how PMA works. People can begin reverse engineering parts and the show is over. McFarlane and Univair make a nice living off of PMA and worse for Mooney, they skim the cream of the most profitable parts. There needs to be a concerted effort by the factory to own the universe of Mooney parts if they are going to succeed. The entire supply chain needs to be reviewed and re-worked from the factory to the MSC's to the owners of Mooney aircraft if the enterprise is to survive. 

People can reverse engineer now and have been able to do in the past. Yet they don’t.

And why is that?  Because there was not enough profit in it ( the total contribution is not enough to offset front end costs). 
 

Lasar has made a few things in the past, mostly landing gear and steering horn related but that resulted from development they did back around and before 2010. But go look at their website now with their new owner. They are wanting to become more of a service company and to all brands. Their interest solely in Mooney parts is fading. 
 

And now costs are higher, the FAA will be more circumspect, the fleet continues to shrink and the ultimate market gets smaller. I think you are kidding yourself If you think anyone is clamoring to get in this market. I suspect that MSC’s can’t purchase, stock or install “knockoff” Mooney parts that the factory still produces(slowly) per contractual agreement with Mooney. How many automobile dealerships do you see selling and installing third party “cheaper” body and suspension parts rather than OEM?
 

I think Jonny knows that he (Mooney) just needs to make it difficult (I.e not share drawings, engineering data) to keep third party PMA at bay. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[GeeBee]

12 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

People can reverse engineer now and have been able to do in the past. Yet they don’t.

And why is that?  Because there was not enough profit in it ( the total contribution is not enough to offset front end costs). 
 

Lasar has made a few things in the past, mostly landing gear and steering horn related but that resulted from development they did back around and before 2010. But go look at their website now with their new owner. They are wanting to become more of a service company and to all brands. Their interest solely in Mooney parts is fading. 
 

And now costs are higher, the FAA will be more circumspect, the fleet continues to shrink and the ultimate market gets smaller. I think you are kidding yourself If you think anyone is clamoring to get in this market. I suspect that MSC’s can’t purchase, stock or install “knockoff” Mooney parts that the factory still produces(slowly) per contractual agreement with Mooney. How many automobile dealerships do you see selling and installing third party “cheaper” body and suspension parts rather than OEM?
 

I think Jonny knows that he (Mooney) just needs to make it difficult (I.e not share drawings, engineering data) to keep third party PMA at bay. 

This is what I am talking about

I was prepared to pay $773 just to make it easy and help the factory. 

It is not unlike the ACE Hardware that was 1.5 miles from my house. It was closer,  way more expensive, and I would go there but....they stopped stocking anything so I started to drive right by them to go 8 miles to Home Depot just so not to waste my time with, "out of stock and don't know when we will get it"

There are about 10,000 Mooney's to be supported. Commander Aircraft has a good business supporting half that number.

There was about an 90% markup in this deal. Larger money if they sent their own drawing to Nimbus rather than Nimbus having to reverse engineer. If someone had said, "We can get it to you in 30 days for $773.00 I would have given them my CC info on the spot.

There is a business there, but it is like the lottery. If you don't play...you cannot win. 

[A64Pilot]

Ref pre-paying for a NBS 

18 months or so ago I gave an MSC $1,000 to order me a NBS, they wouldn’t without the money up front.

I guess I should call Top Gun and ask for the money to be returned? Last time I called they told me Mooney was having QC issues with the supplier, that the springs sent many weren’t serviceable?

I hope they are still in business?

I bet Mooney can’t sell but maybe 10 and would be sitting in the remaining 40 for a long time

Edited July 2, 2023 by A64Pilot