Tips for power off 180 in Mooney ?

[pagirard]

Hi everyone,

I started my commercial and as such discovered many wonderful new maneuvers including my least favorite "Power Off 180".

I was wondering if any of you had experience getting your commercial rating in a Mooney (I fly a M20E) and could critique/share some tips.

My "best" recipe so far has been (assuming no/little winds, setup at traffic pattern altitude and 105 kias on the downwind)

1. Abeam my touchdown point: power off, gear down , 10deg of flaps and one turn of trim up to get 90 kias

2. loose about 100/150 ft, turn base

3. evaluate height and speed, and adjusting flaps to get 80 kias and about 200 ft/min descent rate

4. on final trim for 70 kias and whatever flaps I ended up between 20 and full

I usually end up either too low/short of too fast and float past my touchdown point.

I read this post about idle speed and I'll definitely check tomorrow because I'm pretty sure I'm idling high in the 800-900 range

 

Thanks for your help and have a great day

 

 

[ilovecornfields]

36 minutes ago, pagirard said:

Hi everyone,

I started my commercial and as such discovered many wonderful new maneuvers including my least favorite "Power Off 180".

I was wondering if any of you had experience getting your commercial rating in a Mooney (I fly a M20E) and could critique/share some tips.

My "best" recipe so far has been (assuming no/little winds, setup at traffic pattern altitude and 105 kias on the downwind)

1. Abeam my touchdown point: power off, gear down , 10deg of flaps and one turn of trim up to get 90 kias

2. loose about 100/150 ft, turn base

3. evaluate height and speed, and adjusting flaps to get 80 kias and about 200 ft/min descent rate

4. on final trim for 70 kias and whatever flaps I ended up between 20 and full

I usually end up either too low/short of too fast and float past my touchdown point.

I read this post about idle speed and I'll definitely check tomorrow because I'm pretty sure I'm idling high in the 800-900 range

 

Thanks for your help and have a great day

 

 

I feel like I must have done 20-30 of these with @donkaye when I was getting ready for my commercial checkride. My advice is find an instructor who knows Mooneys.

[N201MKTurbo]

I did mine in the Mooney. I didn’t really practice them. You just have to get a feeling for the plane. 

[Ragsf15e]

I personally do them a little higher on energy (faster) than your speeds.  Not because you want to land faster (you don’t), but because you have lots of methods to kill energy and no way to get it back.  So i plan to start with no flaps, add in half during base (~90mph) when I’m starting to be sure about my winds and perch point working, and then full flaps and/or slip on final when I’m really sure that I’ve nailed my aim point and speed.

[midlifeflyer]

Offhand, it sounds like you may be mechanically targeting a bunch of numbers and activities rather than observing and adjusting. For example, your

3. evaluate height and speed, and adjusting flaps to get 80 kias and about 200 ft/min descent rate

Yes, absolutely evaluate your height on base. That's a key point for most every type of landing. It's the point in the pattern where I find just about everyone (including pre-solo student pilots) can visualize their path to touchdown. But instead of targeting some numbers, do what you need to do to maintain the path you see. This is the place to make most adjustments. Too high? Add flaps, bring the nose up to reduce airspeed and increase descent rate (i.e., short field), or slip; square the turn to final more. Too low? Maintain best glide; delay additonal flaps; cut the corner to final. And remember that height ca be lost far mor easily than it can be regained.

The maneuver is really no different in a Mooney than any other airplane. The keys are uniformity in initial setup, and consistency in target airspeeds, learning how the airplane performs, knowing how far you will travel from aiming point to touchdown, making larger adjustments on base, and much smaller ones on final. Your CFI should really be giving you guidance on this, but my general procedure is.

• Gear down, best glide attitude, initial flaps (that's kind of Mooney/low drag aircraft specific thing) and porp full forward.
• Guestimate the turn to base location. This doesn't have to be perfect because...
• On base rollout use your eyes to see your path to an aiming point and do what you need to do with your tools. The idea here is not the touchdown point but an aiming point.
• Same on final, but you should not be making as aggressive changes as you might make on base. This is really about stability and small pitch changes..
• Observe and let your airplane teach you how far you will travel from aiming point to touchdown. 

Landing too short or too long? Change the aiming point to accommodate. 

[N201MKTurbo]

When I took my commercial, I wasn't even thinking I was going to do the power off 180 on that landing. We were on downwind and the examiner says "your engine quit, where are you going to land?" This was at Hillsboro OR. I told him I would land at the intersection of the two runways. I was just about abeam the crosswind runway at the time. I just continued my approach. He asked "Are you going to put the wheels up?" I said no. On short final I seemed to be coming up short, so I put the wheels up. I kept my hand on the switch so I wouldn't forget. When I was about 10 feet up I put them back down. I left tire marks on the center line stripe of the crosswind runway. 

If you leave the wheels down, you do have a way to increase your energy.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I haven’t done my commercial yet but I do practice power off 180s sometimes.  What I’ve noticed is because the winds are always different there is no recipe for success, and I think that is the point of the exercise.   You have a different situation each time and a tool bag of tricks to accomplish your goal.  

[A64Pilot]

I did my Commercial in 88 I think in an M20 AT. I don’t remember a power off 180?

But if we are talking about doing it for real, the faster the better and don’t get flaps or gear until after the turn and landing is assured.

In my opinion real power off 180’s shouldn’t even be attempted unless your certain you have the altitude, like at cruise for instance.

I think your better off finding a survivable landing area ahead of you, and if this is your home field you should already have those picked out, almost any landing under control is better than one with loss of control in my opinion

[redbaron1982]

9 hours ago, pagirard said:

3. evaluate height and speed, and adjusting flaps to get 80 kias and about 200 ft/min descent rate

80kias and 200 ft/min with power off? Are those numbers correct? When I practiced power off 180, in clean configuration (which would be more efficient), I was doing more like 1000ft/min.

[A64Pilot]

Nope, it was Mar 16 1992 in N 91363.

Anyone own that Mooney?

[PT20J]

I think you are missing something important. The point of the commercial maneuvers is to demonstrate planning, judgement and mastery of flight. The maneuvers are designed to require varying airspeeds, control forces, and attitudes so that they are difficult to perform by rote method. On the power off 180, once the engine is idled, you have to plan your flight path, configuration and airspeed to arrive at your landing spot. Wind will be a big factor. Every one is a little different.

The only way to develop the skill to do this consistently is with a lot a practice. You might want to put the gear down immediately so you don’t risk forgetting it. But you should experiment with the other variables until it becomes second nature. Try some without using flaps at all. Try being too high on purpose and see what effect the flaps have as well as slipping. Eventually you will become very comfortable with what the airplane can and cannot do.

Skip

[N201MKTurbo]

Because of the yellow arc on the tach, I usually keep the power at about 2000 RPM on base and final until I start to get a bit high or fast then I pull the power to idle, so every landing is a dead stick landing. Doing one on purpose, is really just a normal landing.

That Saratoga I've been flying needs some power on final or it drops like a brick. 

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

But if we are talking about doing it for real, the faster the better and don’t get flaps or gear until after the turn and landing is assured.

ACS tasks and "for real" don't necessarily match up. 

[KSMooniac]

I don't think your numbers are correct either, especially 200 FPM descent rate...no way you're doing that power off, or not for very long.  As others already mentioned, this is an exercise in mastery of the airplane and making it do what you want during variable conditions, so I don't think a recipe of configuration, turn points, etc is appropriate, because it will likely be different every single time you try this.  There are lots of ways to slow down after you are completely sure you can make your aim point, so don't get in a hurry to put out flaps and gear.  You can also use the prop control to help... pull it out to glide better, push it in add drag.  Slip if you need to.  Do all of that at the same time as-needed! 

Just go practice a bunch and figure out what works best for you...just never forget to put the gear out!  You can land just fine without flaps, but only once with the gear up.

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I took my commercial, I wasn't even thinking I was going to do the power off 180 on that landing. We were on downwind and the examiner says "your engine quit, where are you going to land?" This was at Hillsboro OR. I told him I would land at the intersection of the two runways. I was just about abeam the crosswind runway at the time. I just continued my approach. He asked "Are you going to put the wheels up?" I said no. On short final I seemed to be coming up short, so I put the wheels up. I kept my hand on the switch so I wouldn't forget. When I was about 10 feet up I put them back down. I left tire marks on the center line stripe of the crosswind runway. 

If you leave the wheels down, you do have a way to increase your energy.

One other way to “increase” energy is to pull the prop control all the way out.  It’s a noticeable improvement in glide and normally we do these things without pulling it.  In a real engine out glide situation, the prop control may already be out because it’s a good thing to do to increase glide range.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

ACS tasks and "for real" don't necessarily match up. 

I asked as I’m pretty sure that wasn’t a Commercial maneuver when I did my ride.

[N201MKTurbo]

9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

One other way to “increase” energy is to pull the prop control all the way out.  It’s a noticeable improvement in glide and normally we do these things without pulling it.  In a real engine out glide situation, the prop control may already be out because it’s a good thing to do to increase glide range.

While I completely agree that that makes a big difference with a dead engine. How much does it help with an idling engine? Perhaps you could cheat a little bit on the check ride and adjust the idle up a bit. In reality I would prefer the plane flies during the check ride just like it flies every other day.

[N201MKTurbo]

https://inspire.eaa.org/2019/02/14/a-lost-art-the-power-off-180-approach-and-landing/

 

[Yetti]

every landing is mostly  a power off 180

 

Think of it more as a descending energy U pattern.

The key is the set up on downwind.   Knowing the where the runway should be in relation to the wing is the key to constancy.

I gear down abeam the number.

Then flaps as needed.  If you are high more flaps.

No turns below 90mph without flaps says the manual.

I usually land half flaps.

 

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

I’m going to throw out one more technique that’s different than these are usually taught.  We used this for emergency engine out landing in the USAF T-6.  Pick your aim point while on downwind, usually ~500’ prior to your touchdown point but depends on winds.  Configure with only gear abeam aim point.  Turn base a couple seconds later.  Now here’s the difference… hold that aim point no matter what (except for a low speed limit, say 80mph).  So you hold the nose down to “fly into the impact point (aim point)” and note your airspeed.  You’re hoping to see something just above your desired final airspeed and increasing (slowly).  As long as you hold the aim point, you can use airspeed as your primary energy indicator.  If it’s increasing, use flaps, slip or elongate your pattern.  If it’s steady, do nothing.  It takes a little practice to be ok with this technique.

[midlifeflyer]

31 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

While I completely agree that that makes a big difference with a dead engine. How much does it help with an idling engine? Perhaps you could cheat a little bit on the check ride and adjust the idle up a bit. In reality I would prefer the plane flies during the check ride just like it flies every other day.

You can notice a difference at idle power. It about the prop blade angle. 

[Ragsf15e]

53 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

While I completely agree that that makes a big difference with a dead engine. How much does it help with an idling engine? Perhaps you could cheat a little bit on the check ride and adjust the idle up a bit. In reality I would prefer the plane flies during the check ride just like it flies every other day.

I feel like it helps a lot with an idling engine but I didn’t measure the change.  Couple weeks ago I did a bunch of these and pulled it back.  Felt like I’d pulled up the gear!

[pagirard]

7 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

80kias and 200 ft/min with power off? Are those numbers correct? When I practiced power off 180, in clean configuration (which would be more efficient), I was doing more like 1000ft/min.

Yes, I pitch for 80 kias and get between 200 to 250 ft/min with 15deg (TO) flaps

[pagirard]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

I think you are missing something important. The point of the commercial maneuvers is to demonstrate planning, judgement and mastery of flight. The maneuvers are designed to require varying airspeeds, control forces, and attitudes so that they are difficult to perform by rote method. On the power off 180, once the engine is idled, you have to plan your flight path, configuration and airspeed to arrive at your landing spot. Wind will be a big factor. Every one is a little different.

The only way to develop the skill to do this consistently is with a lot a practice. You might want to put the gear down immediately so you don’t risk forgetting it. But you should experiment with the other variables until it becomes second nature. Try some without using flaps at all. Try being too high on purpose and see what effect the flaps have as well as slipping. Eventually you will become very comfortable with what the airplane can and cannot do.

Skip

Very good point and I do see improvements as I practice - especially on the downwind and final. But at the very end I'm either flat because I was slow and I bounce of high/fast and I float past my touchdown point.

 

And I agree things will change drastically with different winds ! So practice , practice, practice !

[pagirard]

4 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I don't think your numbers are correct either, especially 200 FPM descent rate...no way you're doing that power off, or not for very long.  As others already mentioned, this is an exercise in mastery of the airplane and making it do what you want during variable conditions, so I don't think a recipe of configuration, turn points, etc is appropriate, because it will likely be different every single time you try this.  There are lots of ways to slow down after you are completely sure you can make your aim point, so don't get in a hurry to put out flaps and gear.  You can also use the prop control to help... pull it out to glide better, push it in add drag.  Slip if you need to.  Do all of that at the same time as-needed! 

Just go practice a bunch and figure out what works best for you...just never forget to put the gear out!  You can land just fine without flaps, but only once with the gear up.

I'm reluctant to play with the prop because you definitely need it full forward for go -around.... and most power off 180 are go arounds right now