Turbo-Normalizing System

[jkhirsch]

If anyone has any leads on a turbo-normalizing system let me know please. If anyone hears anything about the availability of one let me know please.

[carusoam]

Hey JK!

Nice to see you…

Are you asking for a pre-owned TN for your IO360?

There are no known new ones for Mooneys that I am aware of…

That leaves you with finding an existing system….
 

Fortunately, the existing ones are well supported…

The STC for adding a TN for the IO360 in a Mooney was owned by that well known STC writer in FLA that has flown west…. He had a handful of interesting STCs that have not been brought back to life…

 

As for known TNs available around here… Doc John used to have one on the shelf…. Don’t know if it went anywhere… he also flys a M20F.  @M20F-1968

PP memories only, mostly fuzzy memories…

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

There is a company that owns a lot of the vintage Rayjay STC's and inventory, but I do not believe they have the STC to install a system in a Mooney.  They could likely sell parts to support a system though.  You might contact them directly and ask, though, as perhaps they have made some progress.

As Anthony mentioned, John B (tagged above) has had a system available for purchase for many years and I don't know if anyone ever bought it.  The challenge will be to find a legal path to install it in a plane that doesn't already have an STC.  I believe his system is the original Rayjay aftermarket system for the M20 series.

The last modern aftermarket system available was the M20 Turbos Inc kit, but it has been off the market for more than 10 years now.  I unsuccessfully tried to purchase the assets around that time, and after the deal fell through I believe it eventually was given to a friend of the family that ended up in prison for fraud, and I do not know the status of that STC now.  It was certified for E/F/J installations, but for the E & F, it required a full J cowl conversion as part of the process, so for all intents and purposes, it was just barely feasible in the modern era.  

I'm afraid the best answer if you really want a turbo is to trade planes.  I'm in a similar situation, but am married to my J and have a plan to add the TN kit from my salvage J that had it so I think there is a path for me.

[M20F]

I have one and I searched for a plane that had it. That being said unless you got dollars and passion like John does it make no sense to install one.  His STC is the only viable way I am aware to retrofit one.

It’s a nice tool but even flying ultra far, high, and often it is really a 2-3 max times a year thing.  I rock it back from KJMS and KTOR to KLZU at times with 70+ knot tail winds and 160-170 true. When you do the math the time to climb at low speed it usually makes the extra knots a wash or actually slower unless you can grab a monster wind which makes it very limited use.  It shaves a few mins climbing to 11000 to where given the heat issue I generally don’t use it for that.  
 
It is snakey in the flight levels with bootstrapping abound if you don’t set the power right.  It needs to run 11-12Gph at altitude to cool the cylinders so it likes to foul massives.  I personally have not had mag arc’ing issues (unpressurized mags) but people have had the problem.   
 
Nice tool in the toolbox but for the most part turbo GA airplanes are a waste.  Expensive to maintain, rare anyone flies far enough to use one, and nobody flies enough hours to begin with.  
 
My $.02

[jkhirsch]

After a long story over a beer, I'm now at the place where I'm planning to some money and start flying again.

My plans don't have to make sense to you because I'm not spending your money

Unless of course someone wants to become a fractional owner somewhere near Tampa--in that case you can message me.

1. Lopresti mods and sloped windshield
2. Find a TN system
3. No particular order: "That guy's fuel senders" and a "modern engine computer."
4. Paint job....so sad to hear that I have to go to Zephyrhills now instead of right on the field.

Edited March 31, 2023 by jkhirsch

[jkhirsch]

@M20F My "old/previous" understanding of the RayJay system is that it is significantly less "problematic" than a true "turbo."

[jkhirsch]

@M20F I'm not completely stubborn, but I think this is a bit of "I want what I want" situation, but it's also outside of @M20F-1968 I don't know of another "completely upgraded" F model, caveat being the details of yours.

[jkhirsch]

It's also a bit of a simple economic (utility) math problem when you start throwing in variables like useful load, gph, for the additional dollars spent vs the additional dollars spent on a "different airplane" when spending my dollars will yield a "different airplane." My useful load is already around 1200lbs without any modern avionics.

[kris_adams]

4 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

 My useful load is already around 1200lbs without any modern avionics.

I wouldn't want to give that up either!  I'd consider going down the TN path as well if someone can ever figure it out.

[N201MKTurbo]

51 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

It's also a bit of a simple economic (utility) math problem when you start throwing in variables like useful load, gph, for the additional dollars spent vs the additional dollars spent on a "different airplane" when spending my dollars will yield a "different airplane." My useful load is already around 1200lbs without any modern avionics.

My turbo system weighs 35 Lbs.

It has an intercooler that weighs about 5 Lbs. that you won't have.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

It's also a bit of a simple economic (utility) math problem when you start throwing in variables like useful load, gph, for the additional dollars spent vs the additional dollars spent on a "different airplane" when spending my dollars will yield a "different airplane." My useful load is already around 1200lbs without any modern avionics.

I too have a 67F model. Mine is on the light side at 1681lbs (UL of 1059) I have manual gear and flaps. Stripped down to minimum VFR equipment, I could probably get it to down to the marketing departments claim of 1640lbs (UL of 1100). I’m curious how you were able to exceed Mooney’s advertised best case max UL of 1100lbs by nearly 100lbs?

[MIm20c]

Agree with the above. If you like 1200 useful don’t let anyone weigh your plane during the upgrades…

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

Paint job....so sad to hear that I have to go to Zephyrhills now instead of right on the field.

BTW, I just looked at a quote for paint at a "middle of the road" shop on a 182.  That is to say, good work, but not the most expensive option:  $31,000.

[1980Mooney]

21 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

If anyone has any leads on a turbo-normalizing system let me know please. If anyone hears anything about the availability of one let me know please.

 

4 hours ago, kris_adams said:

I wouldn't want to give that up either!  I'd consider going down the TN path as well if someone can ever figure it out.

@KSMooniac is right - If you want a add a turbo (normalized or boost) to a 4 cylinder Lycoming powered Mooney, the only way you will get one is by trading planes with someone that already has one.  The companies that offered STC's in the past are gone - M20Turbos, ModWorks and Turbo Bullet (an early Darwin Conrad company before he started Rocket Engineering).  Rajay Turbos has been resurrected in North Houston at Kestral Airpark but they don't own the STC's for Mooney applications - not clear that they will even sell parts to those that already have a ModWorks STC based upon the Rajay turbo.  See comment from "tomgo2" who is Rayjay.  Note that they ref the Mooney STC's as being in "no man's land".

https://rajay.aero/pages/list-of-stcs  (Mooney applications via ModWorks listed in the detail at the bottom of page)

The Turbo Bullet installation required the pistons converted to lower compression.  The turbo originally boosted to 38" but because it produced more than 200 hp and broke crankshafts, the FAA reduced the allowed boost.  It effectively had to be flown like TN.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

@KSMooniac is right - If you want a add a turbo (normalized or boost) to a 4 cylinder Lycoming powered Mooney, the only way you will get one is by trading planes with someone that already has one.  The companies that offered STC's in the past are gone - M20Turbos, ModWorks and Turbo Bullet (an early Darwin Conrad company before he started Rocket Engineering).  Rajay Turbos has been resurrected in North Houston at Kestral Airpark but they don't own the STC's for Mooney applications - not clear that they will even sell parts to those that already have a ModWorks STC based upon the Rajay turbo.  See comment from "tomgo2" who is Rayjay.  Note that they ref the Mooney STC's as being in "no man's land".

https://rajay.aero/pages/list-of-stcs  (Mooney applications via ModWorks listed in the detail at the bottom of page)

The Turbo Bullet installation required the pistons converted to lower compression.  The turbo originally boosted to 38" but because it produced more than 200 hp and broke crankshafts, the FAA reduced the allowed boost.  It effectively had to be flown like TN.

 

Spring Texas is North of Houston, however Tom of TomGo (aerocessories.aero) is at Kestrel in Spring Branch (1T7) , Texas, North of San Antonio. (https://www.airnav.com/airport/1T7)

[M20F]

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I’m curious how you were able to exceed Mooney’s advertised best case max UL of 1100lbs by nearly 100lbs?

Moved three times with my Mooney.  It lifts like a 206 not that I would ever do that ;-) 

[M20F]

14 hours ago, jkhirsch said:

@M20F My "old/previous" understanding of the RayJay system is that it is significantly less "problematic" than a true "turbo."

It is a normalizer not a charger so it just returns sea level power.  It is though a manual waste gate so when I need to cut a KingAir off in the pattern I got 20” of boost to shove in. 
 
Any turbo can be operated as a normalizer for the most part.  I have about 1000hrs in a 320 (the original turbo 310).  We never used full power on takeoff as it was just 2 of us usually and not 6+baggage.  Ran 65% power at 165 knots.  Never had cylinder issues. 
 
You run a turbo charged (not normalized) full boost especially without a intercooler it’s going to eat cylinders.  Almost all the issues with turbos are user error or users pushing the hell out of the engine. 
 
As you said your money but you would be wildly better served by buying a E/F with the RayJay on it or looking at 231’s.  Me personally I really don’t see much value in a turbo but I own one cause that’s what I wanted.  Logically a straight F would have been the better deal. 
 
Good luck!

[carusoam]

On 4/1/2023 at 1:50 AM, M20F said:

I own one cause that’s what I wanted. 

Can’t argue with that logic!

Go mike!

Best regards,

-a-

[RoundTwo]

On 3/31/2023 at 1:47 PM, Fly Boomer said:

BTW, I just looked at a quote for paint at a "middle of the road" shop on a 182.  That is to say, good work, but not the most expensive option:  $31,000.

Latest quote from Hawk is $23.5k for our planes. That was as of a month or so ago.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

Latest quote from Hawkis $23.5k for our planes. That was as of a month or so ago.

Given the way prices have been going, that certainly sounds like a good deal, but it begs the question "What's the difference?".  The answer, even if we had all the details, might be difficult to suss out.  If I were shopping right now, I would want to see some recent examples of each shop's work.

[Skates97]

On 3/31/2023 at 10:47 AM, Fly Boomer said:

BTW, I just looked at a quote for paint at a "middle of the road" shop on a 182.  That is to say, good work, but not the most expensive option:  $31,000.

 

4 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

Latest quote from Hawk is $23.5k for our planes. That was as of a month or so ago.

I can't believe something in CA would be less expensive than in the rest of the country.  The basic quote from Artcraft last fall was $22k. The final came in just over $30k but that included 36 hours of body work, installation of flap gap seals, 8 more hours to remove some antennas and put in filler plates and patch smooth, plus the design of the paint scheme. I am extremely happy with the job they did.

https://intothesky.com/2023/01/17/art-craft-paint-review/

[Steve0715]

It’s a fabulous looking bird!

[MIm20c]

5 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

Latest quote from Hawk is $23.5k for our planes. That was as of a month or so ago.

He was 16.5 two years ago for a long body w/ a recent factory design…

[carusoam]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:29 AM, Skates97 said:

 

I can't believe something in CA would be less expensive than in the rest of the country.  The basic quote from Artcraft last fall was $22k. The final came in just over $30k but that included 36 hours of body work, installation of flap gap seals, 8 more hours to remove some antennas and put in filler plates and patch smooth, plus the design of the paint scheme. I am extremely happy with the job they did.

https://intothesky.com/2023/01/17/art-craft-paint-review/

wowwww!

Richard, she is still getting newer!!!

.Fantastic!

Best regards,

-a-

[jkhirsch]

On 3/31/2023 at 11:57 AM, Shadrach said:

I’m curious how you were able to exceed Mooney’s advertised best case max UL of 1100lbs by nearly 100lbs?

Newer equipment weighs a lot less than it did in 1967. Very specifically two pieces shed a lot of weight. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by jkhirsch