201 Windscreen & Cowl Mod Cost

[ArtVandelay]

Keep in mind that there are other benefits to getting the actual J airframe, as compared to spending the same amount of money (or more) modding an F.
I have an F with most of the speed mods (cowl+windshield included) and it definitely looks sleek and goes a few knots faster. But it's impossible that I'll ever have a gear speed greater than 104kts in this plane, as compared to 132kts on the 1978+ J models. Sure, I've learned to start pulling power early in order to be slow enough in the pattern to drop the gear, but it stings when controllers call out to following traffic that I'm going cessna speeds down the glideslope.
Also, if you like the look of the shiny smooth wingtips of the J, make sure you avoid the 1967(ish) F model years because the blunt wingtips can't be modded into the nice curvy design.
Just a few of the benefit of the actual J model over the fully-modded F that come to mind. If I were considering spending money to mod an F model to J standards, I'd just buy the J. Otherwise, find an F with the mods you already want before buying, as everyone else has said. The impact of pre-existing mods on pricing will be minimal.
Our values are a little different, so I'm very happy with my F that has a nice IFR panel with passable (but not fancy) paint, interior, and many of the mods tossed in as a bonus; it was certainly cheaper than a J with a similar panel. But if you want speed mods aerodynamics/looks above all else, just get the J from the start.

Agree completely and there a few other differences:
Improved engine air intake making ram air superfluous.
Replaced quadrant with push pull controls.

And Js also have speed mods like 1 piece belly, hidden antennas….but any speed improvement is questionable.

[KSMooniac]

One caveat... the fully evolved J didn't really arrive until 1984 or 1985... a lot of the improvements were incrementally added over the first few years of production.  My '77 J had more in common with a '76 F than it does with an '84 J as an example.  I'm slowly catching up to the later J as I've replaced the throttle quadrant and center console with push-pull controls, and replaced the overhead pop-up scoop vent with the dorsal fin vent system.  Added wingtips in 2021. 1 piece belly perhaps later this year. 

[Shadrach]

I will be a voice of descent here.  We for the most part only know asking prices so it's hard to say what value the market places on mods.  I would expect to pay a significant premium for a well well finished 201 clone over a standard F.  Having flown both Fs and Js, the delta in block speed for average versions of each model amounts to little more than bragging rights.  There are well rigged and tweaked outliers that do much better (and dogs that do much worse). Byron and Becca’s 201 @jetdriven comes to mind but he has spent a lot of time tweaking both his airframe and power settings for maximum speed, low altitude amateur air racing.

I am biased towards the manual systems and the lighter weight of the vintage birds. The airframe build quality of the 1960's birds is about as good as any the factory ever put out. The same cannot be said for interior refinement/fit and finish but that is correctable.  If there were a situation where I was seeking a replacement Mooney, I would be looking for another F model with an eye towards birds that are well modified.  There are several folks with experience that extol the virtues of the vintage birds: @M20F-1968 and @FloridaMan both fly well modded vintage Fs and certainly could have acquired 201s instead.  The former did a wings off "restomod" of an F that has resulted in TN'd 201 clone that is one of the most desirable mid-bodied Mooneys in existence.  At the end of the day, I think you should look for the best value that meets your mission and desired equipment as the difference is performance between the two would be quantified as minimal anywhere other than an aviation forum. 

[Huckster79]

21 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I will be a voice of descent here.  We for the most part only know asking prices so it's hard to say what value the market places on mods.  I would expect to pay a significant premium for a well well finished 201 clone over a standard F.  Having flown both Fs and Js, the delta in block speed for average versions of each model amounts to little more than bragging rights.  There are well rigged and tweaked outliers that do much better (and dogs that do much worse). Byron and Becca’s 201 @jetdriven comes to mind but he has spent a lot of time tweaking both his airframe and power settings for maximum speed, low altitude amateur air racing.

I am biased towards the manual systems and the lighter weight of the vintage birds. The airframe build quality of the 1960's birds is about as good as any the factory ever put out. The same cannot be said for interior refinement/fit and finish but that is correctable.  If there were a situation where I was seeking a replacement Mooney, I would be looking for another F model with an eye towards birds that are well modified.  There are several folks with experience that extol the virtues of the vintage birds: @M20F-1968 and @FloridaMan both fly well modded vintage Fs and certainly could have acquired 201s instead.  The former did a wings off "restomod" of an F that has resulted in TN'd 201 clone that is one of the most desirable mid-bodied Mooneys in existence.  At the end of the day, I think you should look for the best value that meets your mission and desired equipment as the difference is performance between the two would be quantified as minimal anywhere other than an aviation forum. 

 I agree with what you say, though my knowledge on the build quality is nill, but makes sense to me.  Im solidly in the hunt the right F camp right now.  Many great looking birds for 80-100k (My approx budget for purchase), there aren't any decent J's out there for that amount that I've seen.  So I think I'm solidly in the F camp, and would put a bit more weight on the airframe mods than the IFR screens that are or aren't present.  Reasoning being, I don't need those yet, and those can be done, sounds like some mods no longer can to the airframe in practicality.  Plus that gives me the freedom to rig up the interior with what equipment I want when the time comes.  Airframe Mods aren't an absolute requirement for me, but I'd put more personal value on them than fancy avionics I believe right now.  Ideally I want to find one that triangulates well, meaning it I don't want one with great airframe mods but barely usable for VFR panel, I don't want one with a great panel but ratty paint or run out engine, etc, nor would I want one that was perfect in all those ways but was a hangar queen.  So just trying to wrap my arms around "value" of different things being all of them will be a compromise until my budget is triple what it is now...   So I thank you for your input.

I would much prefer the manual gear for the same reason I wish I could get a car with manual windows!  I keep things a long time and like simple things-they last better without as much headache... But again I wouldn't rule one out because its got the electric gear, would just prefer manual.  I fly a 1947 Cessna 140 right now so even the most stripped down Mooney seems like a Cadillac Escalade.    My current bird also Teed me up to say "Small Cabin? What are these anti-mooney folks talking about, this thing is massive inside!"  I've been used to traveling cross country with the two of us and one toothbrush to share to make weight and fit"  

 

[DCarlton]

You should be able to find a solid F between 80 and 100K.  If I were selling, I'd sell mine for that.  I'm a fan of the 65-67 production years, but the later model F panels might make for an easier upgrade.  The sloped windshield is nice; mine has the two small access panels.  As far as cowl mods, I think the simple cowl closure looks good enough but... I do like my SWTA cowl mod too.  As far as gear, I like my electric gear but my motor has never let me down (no issues so far in 20 years).  

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, Huckster79 said:

So I think I'm solidly in the F camp, and would put a bit more weight on the airframe mods than the IFR screens that are or aren't present.  Reasoning being, I don't need those yet, and those can be done, sounds like some mods no longer can to the airframe in practicality.

I think this is sound reasoning.  If I felt strongly about STCs I really wanted, but they are no longer available either from an economical perspective or no longer available under any circumstances, I might have to give a little on some of my other needs, wants, hopes, or desires -- and, in fact, that's exactly what I did.  Another factor is to dig out how much a prospective purchase has been flown in the last month, last year, and last decade.  Nothing is more deadly to these birds than inactivity.  Even if it's only 50 hours per year, if it's been flown one hour every week, it will be much healthier than one that has been sitting idle.

[Huckster79]

12 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I think this is sound reasoning.  If I felt strongly about STCs I really wanted, but they are no longer available either from an economical perspective or no longer available under any circumstances, I might have to give a little on some of my other needs, wants, hopes, or desires -- and, in fact, that's exactly what I did.  Another factor is to dig out how much a prospective purchase has been flown in the last month, last year, and last decade.  Nothing is more deadly to these birds than inactivity.  Even if it's only 50 hours per year, if it's been flown one hour every week, it will be much healthier than one that has been sitting idle.

Thanks, and as much as I like the more sloped windscreen and such they aren’t absolutes, but they are big “bonus” items for me as I look at different birds for sale. 

[MikeOH]

I’m going to disagree on airframe mods vs. avionics. Mostly because I doubt my plane is more than a few knots faster than one without! And my F has just about every mod: cowl, 201 windshield, all the gap seals, dorsal, caliper reversal, …. IOW, juice not worth the squeeze, IMHO. 201 WS is the exception but only because it looks great 

OTOH, while you may not want/need the avionics now, you are going to be way behind financially if you add them later. I’m not saying all the latest glass, but IFR with a WAAS GPS (430W) would be good.

[Skates97]

I went a similar route as the OP. Back in 2016 I bought the nicest one I could afford. It didn't have any fancy avionics, no autopilot or even wing leveler, and while it was technically IFR capable I wouldn't have wanted to fly it IFR.  But, I didn't have my Instrument Rating (only 58.2 total hours in my logbook) and while there were plans to someday get my rating it wasn't immediate. I spent the next 4-5 years flying it all over the southwest and once out to the east coast and back VFR. We adjusted trips by a day here and there and some departure/arrival times but made just about every trip we wanted to make.

I wanted to get rid of the vacuum gages and put a GPS in the panel before beginning my IFR. When I bought the plane I knew it would be extra cost to add them after the purchase, but I was more interested in buying a frequently flown/clean airframe than the avionics it came with. A little over four years after purchase I had the panel I wanted and began my IFR training and completed it a couple months before the five year anniversary of owning the plane.

I'll disagree about the 430W. I know it has been a long staple in the GA world, but compared to newer units I don't like it at all. I have a GNC355 in my plane and did a little flying in a 172 with a 430W. The resolution, menus, and functionality don't even compare.

As has been said in this thread and I think every other thread where people come asking about purchase advice. Just by the best Mooney that has been frequently flown that you can afford. Have your list of must haves and wants and make sure it checks off as many of the must haves as possible.

Oh, and the topic of mods. I agree with @MikeOH, I don't think they really add much. I have the SWTA windshield mod, cowl enclosure, brake reversal, and I think a few others. The cowl enclosure I think does help with the cooling, and it looks better than the guppy mouth but I don't think adds speed. The windshield mod looks nice, maybe adds some speed, but really makes the inside "feel" bigger. I had the flap gap seals added when I had it painted last year. They claim a speed increase, but I true out at the exact same speed as before. They also claim an increase in climb rate and that one is real. Before once I hit about 7,000' it would slow down and from 8-10,000' I usually saw about 300 fpm unless it was a hot day in the southwest and then it was a crawl. Now I see close to 500 fpm all the way to 10,000'.

https://intothesky.com/2016/12/16/buying-n78878/

[DCarlton]

I'll toss in one more comment to stir things up a bit more.  If my F of 20 years didn't have every possible airframe STC including windshield, cowl, one piece belly, gap seals, root and dorsal fairings, and even low and behold... wing tips, I would probably have bought a J a long time ago.  With the fully modded F, it's hard to justify, especially since I have a low time engine and prop that I have great confidence in.  It's an emotional perspective; not necessarily a practical one.  If only I had the J instrument panel mod.  :>  And yes a Lo Presti cowl would have been a nice touch.  So now... if I ever buy a J, it'll be an '87 or later model.  And that will only happen if the stock market ever wakes the F up.  

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I'll toss in one more comment to stir things up a bit more.  If my F of 20 years didn't have every possible airframe STC including windshield, cowl, one piece belly, gap seals, root and dorsal fairings, and even low and behold... wing tips, I would probably have bought a J a long time ago.  With the fully modded F, it's hard to justify, especially since I have a low time engine and prop that I have great confidence in.  It's an emotional perspective; not necessarily a practical one.  If only I had the J instrument panel mod.  :>  And yes a Lo Presti cowl would have been a nice touch.  So now... if I ever buy a J, it'll be an '87 or later model.  And that will only happen if the stock market ever wakes the F up.  

The other reason that it is hard to justify is because a J will always command a premium over an F, even one fully modified with all the “201” mods and with comparable quality paint, interior, hours, avionics, etc. It’s not a “J”.  

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

The other reason that it is hard to justify is because a J will always command a premium over an F, even one fully modified with all the “201” mods and with comparable quality paint, interior, hours, avionics, etc. It’s not a “J”.  

Well a J is newer and newer ones can be very clean.  And even with the premium it’s still cheaper than the competition,  I’ve got a hunch fuel prices are driving up J prices too.  

[M20F-1968]

Thought I would chime in on this one.   My  68 highly modified F will do as much and a lot more than any J.   That is because I  built into it modifications that were incorporated in the J and that were also incorporated into the later models.   So mine is truly a one-of-a-kind airplane.   My message here is to not only decide what your mission is, and obtain what you will need to obtain your mission, but also look at yourself and decide what kind, complexity, and type of airplane you want and feel comfortable being married to!  If you simply buy and live with what you find on the market, you can always sell it.  If you invest yourself in to the airplane, you are likely married to it.

Like the J, mine is a 160-knot airplane at 75% power at 10,000 feet.  Full forward at the same altitude, it is a 168-knot airplane.    Both 100° rich of peak.  Since it is turbo normalized, at 17,000-18,000 ft altitude,  it is a 175-knot airplane,  which is something the J will not do.  I do like the Johnson bar upgrade.  The hydraulic flaps are a PITA to rig, but once fig them, there is not much maintenance but to keep the reservoir topped off.  No limit switches to fail and troubleshoot.  

The remainder of the plane is a Modern Mooney.  Ovation style panel, Glass Garmin equipment, 90 gallons of fuel, ROP v. LOP with Gami Injectors, speed brakes which I do use, Ovation interior and seats, Ovation O2 System (downsized to 50 cubic feet), STEC 60-2 with electric trim and altitude preselector.....

These are the advantages of a project airplane.  I must say that it is likely the best imaginable retirement Mooney.  

BUT..........It is a lot of work to get there.   I bought the airplane when it was advertised on e-bay.  It had sat in a hanger for many years.  The Mooney factory folks looked at it,  Russell Stallings looked at it and took it more apart....and I jumped in with both feet.  The final design was the result of many delays and many redesigns.  One never knows what you will get in the end until you are very close to the end....same is true about cost.  

A project like this is not for the faint of heart.  

So yes, my best advice is simple and basic.  Decide how much airplane you need and want...Of the Vintage birds, the F is a sweet spot, but an F that is upgraded to become J, while keeping the aspects of the F that a J cannot give you is quite interesting.  When I bought mine, I thought ahead and wanted a stable IFR airplane, that was not a maintenance hog, and is an excellent compromise between speed, complexity, cost to maintain, and efficiency.  My airplane strikes that compromise-point well.  I also thought that a plane with manual systems is easier to keep flying after the factory quits making them than a more modern version with motors that drive actuators.....yes, I did think of this 20 years ago.  

Plan out what you will do, and have the personnel identified that will help you do it.  I wasted many years finding the one sheet metal mechanic that helped me get the airplane airborne.  He was a 40-year-old, 20-year experienced sheet-metal mechanic/manager who worked for Gulfstream.  He did excellent work. 

If you do buy a plane as a project, make sure you have the resources to finish it.  I never set out to win Outstanding Mooney and a Lindy award at Oshkosh.  Entering those competitions was an afterthought.  I just set out to make a unique airplane that fit what I could not find, was rebuilt completely so I knew what I had (buying a used plane and not recognizing hidden damage did not feel comfortable).  In the end, I know what I have from the inside out. 

John Breda

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:12 PM, 1980Mooney said:

The other reason that it is hard to justify is because a J will always command a premium over an F, even one fully modified with all the “201” mods and with comparable quality paint, interior, hours, avionics, etc. It’s not a “J”.  

There are buyers, albeit a minority, that prefer the the pre 69 manual airplanes to any other NA mid body Mooney.  It is sort of an “if you know you know” situation.  There are many that would pay a premium for a J over an airplane like John’s. It’s an added bonus for those of us that know better.

[Denis Mexted]

5) Don’t forget… the OAT gauge has better places to go, than through the windshield… (more dough)

Where would that be, in the hypothetical case I was to go down the sloped windshield path?