Old instrument clearance procedure

[RobertGary1]

I did my airplane instrument ratings in the 90’s. I recall we still had to learn an old instrument clearance where atc would clear a bunch of planes for an approach at the same time but we were assigned times. No radio during the procedure and we’d step down in the hold as our slot time came. I recall this being called a “timed approach clearance” but that doesn’t sound right. Anyone with a better memory?

[midlifeflyer]

It's the "timed approach from a holding fix" mentioned in 91.175 as one of the times you don't fly a procedure turn.  They are discussed in AIM 5-4-10.

[GeeBee]

It was borne out of the Berlin airlift procedures and in 53 years of flying, never had to do one. You can add that one to your ADF approach skills.

 

[Pinecone]

The only thing I remember was it being part of NORDO procedure.  If you lost radios you would proceed to the IAF of the most likely approach, hold at your cruising altitude, then let down and shoot the approach at either the last expect further clearance time or you ETA.

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The only thing I remember was it being part of NORDO procedure.  If you lost radios you would proceed to the IAF of the most likely approach, hold at your cruising altitude, then let down and shoot the approach at either the last expect further clearance time or you ETA.

That’s a different thing. But, I wouldn’t do that. I discussed this with controllers and they told me they consider lost communications an emergency since they don’t know your status, and they just get everyone out of the way of anywhere you might reasonably go. 

[Pinecone]

I have heard the same thing.

But just saying what I was taught.  A number of years ago.

[Igor_U]

5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

It was borne out of the Berlin airlift procedures and in 53 years of flying, never had to do one. You can add that one to your ADF approach skills.

 

and four-course radio range approach skills. 

Museum workshop at KPAE has the restored Link Trainers in the window... years ago I saw someone sitting in it so perhaps brushing on those lost instrument skills. 

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

That’s a different thing. But, I wouldn’t do that. I discussed this with controllers and they told me they consider lost communications an emergency since they don’t know your status, and they just get everyone out of the way of anywhere you might reasonably go. 

...and follow you on radar even it it's not reasonable. 

ATC aside, I can't think of many realistic true lost com situations which are not at least a potential emergency (and I am not one to wait while potential becomes real). The closest I've come to pilot side IFR lost com that was not an emergency was in 1994. The M20C had two vacuum tube radios. They would overheat. Knowing this, I kept one of them off and switched back and forth. Even them, I advised ATC we might lose com.

 

[PT20J]

27 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

...and follow you on radar even it it's not reasonable. 

ATC aside, I can't think of many realistic true lost com situations which are not at least a potential emergency (and I am not one to wait while potential becomes real). The closest I've come to pilot side IFR lost com that was not an emergency was in 1994. The M20C had two vacuum tube radios. They would overheat. Knowing this, I kept one of them off and switched back and forth. Even them, I advised ATC we might lose com.

 

Is that a 6AU6A? 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Is that a 6AU6A? 

Beats the heck out of me.

[carusoam]

For fun…

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6au6a.html

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

For fun…

https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6au6a.html

-a-

The largest distributor of vacuum tubes in the USA is about a mile from my house. I haven’t been there in years, but it is a fun place to go.

https://www.tubesandmore.com

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The largest distributor of vacuum tubes in the USA is about a mile from my house. I haven’t been there in years, but it is a fun place to go.

https://www.tubesandmore.com

I thought at one time the Russians were the biggest suppliers?  Maybe it was the Soviet Union?

[A64Pilot]

4 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I thought at one time the Russians were the biggest suppliers?  Maybe it was the Soviet Union?

For Stereo tube amplifiers they are still one of the best quality tube suppliers.

I don’t know about anything else that may use tubes still.

[T. Peterson]

23 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I have heard the same thing.

But just saying what I was taught.  A number of years ago.

So was I. I never heard of the procedure to which the OP was referring. Either my education, memory or both is deficient!

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I thought at one time the Russians were the biggest suppliers?  Maybe it was the Soviet Union?

Last time I was in there, they sold a lot of Russian tubes.

As far as I can tell, there is only one company in the USA that actually manufactures vacuum tubes and that is Western Electric in Georgia. They only make one tube the 208B which they sell for $700. it is for high end audio amps. All other tube manufacturers are in Eastern Europe (ex soviet), Russia or China. There are a few american companies that claim to manufacturer tubes, but they are actually operating tube factories in Russia. 

[Igor_U]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:25 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

Last time I was in there, they sold a lot of Russian tubes.

As far as I can tell, there is only one company in the USA that actually manufactures vacuum tubes and that is Western Electric in Georgia. They only make one tube the 208B which they sell for $700. it is for high end audio amps. All other tube manufacturers are in Eastern Europe (ex soviet), Russia or China. There are a few american companies that claim to manufacturer tubes, but they are actually operating tube factories in Russia. 

All true.

Interesting is that Russians bought most of the rights to manufacture remake of western tubes like Genelex (Golden Lions), Mullard, EH and such. Supposing sound the same as originals but some people swore NOS western tubes are better. Dunno, but I can tell you prices of Russian tubes went up dramatically after war in Ukraine started. 

[cliffy]

Who here besides me has ever flown an actual  LF Range approach?    :-) :-)

To add- How about a PAR?

[Fly Boomer]

7 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Dunno, but I can tell you prices of Russian tubes went up dramatically after war in Ukraine started. 

Let's be clear:  The war didn't just "start" -- Russia invaded Ukraine.

[PT20J]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:14 AM, T. Peterson said:

So was I. I never heard of the procedure to which the OP was referring. Either my education, memory or both is deficient!

I believe he was referring to timed approaches. It's in the AIM and 7110.65.

[PT20J]

5 hours ago, cliffy said:

Who here besides me has ever flown an actual  LF Range approach?    :-) :-)

To add- How about a PAR?

Always sorry to have never flown a range approach. I used to fly PARs for fun at Elmendorf in Anchorage and Fritzsche AAF at For Ord near Monterey CA. It was always fun and the controllers appreciated the practice because they had to do some number of approaches for currency too.

[Brent]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:46 AM, midlifeflyer said:

...and follow you on radar even it it's not reasonable. 

ATC aside, I can't think of many realistic true lost com situations which are not at least a potential emergency (and I am not one to wait while potential becomes real). The closest I've come to pilot side IFR lost com that was not an emergency was in 1994. The M20C had two vacuum tube radios. They would overheat. Knowing this, I kept one of them off and switched back and forth. Even them, I advised ATC we might lose com.

 

Those early radios were hell to install, too….

[N201MKTurbo]

Ya need one of those tuning eye tubes to get it just right.

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

I believe he was referring to timed approaches. It's in the AIM and 7110.65.

Pretty sure that's true since he gave that answer the gold cup like above. As mentioned, it's also referred to in the FAR.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, cliffy said:

Who here besides me has ever flown an actual  LF Range approach?    :-) :-)

To add- How about a PAR?

I have flown a number of PAR and ASR approaches.  At least for training, I don't recall if any were for real.  Maybe one or two.  Nothing like flying a heavy weight PAR in the T-38, with a final approach speed of 175 KIAS.

I have not flown a 4 course radio range approach, but my Dad flew them all the time.  He was a USN pilot in the 50s and 60s.

I have a friend who has a hobby of finding the remains of old radio range stations.  The huge concrete blocks are hard to get rid of.  He has found a number of the radio buildings intact.