NorCal to SoCal VFR Transitions

[katzhome]

Hi All,

I'm starting in on my opportunities to "stretch my legs" with N43CA.  One is to travel to San Diego and also looking at Mexico. 

I'm still working on studying for my IFR knowledge test, so these are VFR-only options currently.

So coming south from KRHV what routes or transitions do you use?  I'm on a Discord discussion that has been going into LAX transitions, but I'm hearing that many of the VFR routes other than the Coastal Route and SFRA are no longer being approved.

I'm looking at going from KRHV to KSDM (Brown Field) or KSEE (Gillespie, to tag up with @kortopates!).  

Routes I've been playing with:  KRHV - KPRB - SPLNT - RZS - FIM - KVNY- SLI (Coliseum Route) - DANAH - VPSMP - VPOCN - HURSI - CARIF - VPSMS - VPSMB - ORTEE - KSDM

A suggested one has been KRHV - LHS - V459 - DARTS - V186 ROBNN - KSEE or KSDM.

 

Any suggestions, experiences and words or wisdom appreciated!

R.Katz

[ZuluZulu]

9 hours ago, katzhome said:

A suggested one has been KRHV - LHS - V459 - DARTS - V186 ROBNN - KSEE or KSDM.

This route is fine, but it's not very scenic, and if you do it during hot months you're going to be hitting some turbulence in the Central Valley around Bakersfield.  Also, DARTS is on the approach to KSMO, which is frequently used by incoming traffic and for training, and it's very close to all the Southwest traffic coming out of Burbank which will probably annoy a sector controller.  In my early days as a PPL I used DARTS and the controllers were clearly annoyed and routed me around it.  I've avoided it ever since.  Believe it or not I find it much easier to deal with LAX than trying to get around Burbank (especially without a Bravo clearance which I feel is harder to get around BUR).  The published LAX transitions are there for a reason!

If you stay closer to the coast you'd get a better view and it will probably be cooler temps thanks to the ocean.  Plus there are some fantastic airports along there.  Camarillo is worth a lunch stop at least once, in either direction.  San Luis Obispo also has a good restaurant.  You know better than me how to get out of the Bay Area, so let's just say KRHV -> SNS (modify as needed) -> YERGU -> PRB -> RZS (note the elevation, I would try to be at least 7500 or 9500 going east, it can be bumpy lower) -> CMA -> Coastal Route -> VPSPP -> KSEE.  For the Coastal Route, which I use every time unless I'm landing at KSMO/KVNY and using LA Special Flight Rules, you enter south of KVNY -> LAX -> exit roughly FERMY.  I have user waypoints programmed at distances on the LAX radials that take me to a point just north of the Bravo south of VNY and north of SMO, and then on the other side of LAX, it takes me to a point east of Torrance and close to FERMY yet on the radial.

If you trust your engine, have life jackets, and want to get really scenic with it, you can do this portion: RZS -> VTU -> SXC -> VPLDP (used to regain glide range)-> VPSPP -> KSEE.  You will be outside of the LAX Bravo the entire time.  I only do this at 9,500 or above to ensure maximum gliding range to Catalina or land, but man what a view.  And I usually tell the controller for that sector what I'm doing ("VTU, SXC, then Dana Point"), and they seem to appreciate it.  Since, yes, most people do not go that way.

Whichever way you're going, expect vectors and altitude changes for traffic around KSNA.  And on the Coastal Route I frequently get instructed to descend and maintain 6000 instead of 6500 while in the Bravo.  If I'm going to KCMA, I don't bother climbing back up, although they will offer it.  Going south, they usually keep me where I'm at.

And finally that last part of the route, starting at the Coastal Route -> VPSPP -> KSEE, is usually exactly what I do.  I'm usually high enough to remain within gliding range of airports and it keeps you away from VFR training traffic lower and closer to the coast.  Also, be careful using OCN as a waypoint.  There is heavy skydiving/jump traffic operating out of Oceanside and you will be instructed to remain west of the VOR for jump traffic, so you might as well plan to be west of it since that's what they'll make you do anyway.  And make sure you ask SoCal for a Bravo transition direct to Gillespie as you near VPSPP, if they haven't given it to you already.  It's easy and you'll get it 99 times out of 100.  Make sure that 1 time out of 100 is part of your flight planning so you'll be prepared to either squeeze through the Bravo to Mount Soledad, then transition Montgomery's airspace, or route around the Bravo to the east via Ramona, if you have to.  

[ZuluZulu]

9 hours ago, katzhome said:

So coming south from KRHV what routes or transitions do you use?  I'm on a Discord discussion that has been going into LAX transitions, but I'm hearing that many of the VFR routes other than the Coastal Route and SFRA are no longer being approved.

The Mini Route is definitely more of a legend at this point, but I haven't heard about refusals for any other route besides Coastal, which I've never been turned down on.  And obviously you don't need ATC permission for the LASFR so there is no "approval" there.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you really want to PO the controllers, just go at 11500 and go direct.

[donkaye]

If you communicate with certainty, I've found controllers to be very accommodating in Socal.  I always start with "If able" when I'm asking for something.  Having said that, with family in San Diego I've made that trip countless times from KSJC.  In fact, I just got back from KRNM a couple of days ago.  Certainly it helps to have the instrument rating.  Without it, for your trip, I'd take the high road and go relatively direct at 11,500 with O2 and come back at 12,500.  I'd go KRHV-LHS-CA76-SAMOS-KSEE and come in the back way.  This keeps you out of the Class B airspace.  Have a good trip or call me to further discuss it. (408-499-9910)

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If you really want to PO the controllers, just go at 11500 and go direct.

If you go direct, or the near-direct route Don suggested, get VFR flight following.   If you say what you are going to do and do what you say, ATC appreciates knowing your intentions and, I’ve found, are helpful and courteous.  

[N201MKTurbo]

8 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

If you go direct, or the near-direct route Don suggested, get VFR flight following.   If you say what you are going to do and do what you say, ATC appreciates knowing your intentions and, I’ve found, are helpful and courteous.  

About a year ago, I was flying to Santa Barbara a lot. I would file IFR out of SBA then FIM PSP. every time as I approached FIM they would amend my plan and send me out to the desert (PMD). I would cancel IFR and tell them I would stay with them VFR DIRECT PSP AT 15500. They always tried to talk me out of it. But they always made it happen. You get to see a lot of Boeings….

[katzhome]

7 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

This route is fine, but it's not very scenic, and if you do it during hot months you're going to be hitting some turbulence in the Central Valley around Bakersfield.  Also, DARTS is on the approach to KSMO, which is frequently used by incoming traffic and for training, and it's very close to all the Southwest traffic coming out of Burbank which will probably annoy a sector controller.  In my early days as a PPL I used DARTS and the controllers were clearly annoyed and routed me around it.  I've avoided it ever since.  Believe it or not I find it much easier to deal with LAX than trying to get around Burbank (especially without a Bravo clearance which I feel is harder to get around BUR).  The published LAX transitions are there for a reason!

If you stay closer to the coast you'd get a better view and it will probably be cooler temps thanks to the ocean.  Plus there are some fantastic airports along there.  Camarillo is worth a lunch stop at least once, in either direction.  San Luis Obispo also has a good restaurant.  You know better than me how to get out of the Bay Area, so let's just say KRHV -> SNS (modify as needed) -> YERGU -> PRB -> RZS (note the elevation, I would try to be at least 7500 or 9500 going east, it can be bumpy lower) -> CMA -> Coastal Route -> VPSPP -> KSEE.  For the Coastal Route, which I use every time unless I'm landing at KSMO/KVNY and using LA Special Flight Rules, you enter south of KVNY -> LAX -> exit roughly FERMY.  I have user waypoints programmed at distances on the LAX radials that take me to a point just north of the Bravo south of VNY and north of SMO, and then on the other side of LAX, it takes me to a point east of Torrance and close to FERMY yet on the radial.

If you trust your engine, have life jackets, and want to get really scenic with it, you can do this portion: RZS -> VTU -> SXC -> VPLDP (used to regain glide range)-> VPSPP -> KSEE.  You will be outside of the LAX Bravo the entire time.  I only do this at 9,500 or above to ensure maximum gliding range to Catalina or land, but man what a view.  And I usually tell the controller for that sector what I'm doing ("VTU, SXC, then Dana Point"), and they seem to appreciate it.  Since, yes, most people do not go that way.

Whichever way you're going, expect vectors and altitude changes for traffic around KSNA.  And on the Coastal Route I frequently get instructed to descend and maintain 6000 instead of 6500 while in the Bravo.  If I'm going to KCMA, I don't bother climbing back up, although they will offer it.  Going south, they usually keep me where I'm at.

And finally that last part of the route, starting at the Coastal Route -> VPSPP -> KSEE, is usually exactly what I do.  I'm usually high enough to remain within gliding range of airports and it keeps you away from VFR training traffic lower and closer to the coast.  Also, be careful using OCN as a waypoint.  There is heavy skydiving/jump traffic operating out of Oceanside and you will be instructed to remain west of the VOR for jump traffic, so you might as well plan to be west of it since that's what they'll make you do anyway.  And make sure you ask SoCal for a Bravo transition direct to Gillespie as you near VPSPP, if they haven't given it to you already.  It's easy and you'll get it 99 times out of 100.  Make sure that 1 time out of 100 is part of your flight planning so you'll be prepared to either squeeze through the Bravo to Mount Soledad, then transition Montgomery's airspace, or route around the Bravo to the east via Ramona, if you have to.  

Thanks @ZuluZulu, all of this is very much appreciated!  At the moment, I'm still new with the plane and the engine and I don't have my engine monitor installed yet, so I'm ok with less scenic and less over-water for the near-term.  Thank you for the note about traffic around DARTS and OCN, that is some of the stuff one doesn't know unless you fly in the area.

[katzhome]

5 hours ago, donkaye said:

If you communicate with certainty, I've found controllers to be very accommodating in Socal.  I always start with "If able" when I'm asking for something.  Having said that, with family in San Diego I've made that trip countless times from KSJC.  In fact, I just got back from KRNM a couple of days ago.  Certainly it helps to have the instrument rating.  Without it, for your trip, I'd take the high road and go relatively direct at 11,500 with O2 and come back at 12,500.  I'd go KRHV-LHS-CA76-SAMOS-KSEE and come in the back way.  This keeps you out of the Class B airspace.  Have a good trip or call me to further discuss it. (408-499-9910)

Thanks @donkaye, much appreciated!  I'm working on my IR, but work and kids college tours keep interfering with my studying for the knowledge test!  I don't have O2 yet, but it is in the plan.  I'm trying to get an engine monitor installed as well as clearing some of the less critical (but still important) squawks I've found from my first ~20 hours in the plane.

[katzhome]

So in my other thread I was asked to show routes.  My first attempt here.  This would be an "avoid the Bravo" route to KSEE, but as mentioned by @ZuluZulu above, there may be some turbulence near Bakersfield.

 

 

[Niko182]

I'd personally avoid "avoiding the bravo". Socal airspace seems scary, but really if you're on flight following it is quite easy. Coastal route will be approved, and Socal usually just ends up clearing you into the bravo of San Diego/ Miramar, in my experience. I used to fly out of John Wayne for about 10 years, so I know the airspace pretty well.

I'd do KRHV VNY VPLQM (Queen Mary) OCN VPSMS KSEE at 9500.

VNY to VPLQM is simply the hollywood park route. OCN keeps you going along the coast. You don't have to worry about R-2503D because 99% of the time, it is not active. VPSMS waypoint is added there to transition through the bravo shelves in between 3500 and 4500ft however I doubt you'll need it. A while ago I did KSNA - KSEE - KSNA twice in one day flying @ZuluZulu to his avionics shop and back. Through all 4 legs of the flight, we were cleared through the San Diego bravo. Going towards KSEE, they usually clear you through the bravo once you're 5 or 10 miles past KCRQ.

just my 2 cents.

[DCarlton]

Pull up Flightaware and look at how I flew from KCRQ to KSEE today and back.  That’s the easiest way.  Doesn’t matter whether you enter SOCAL from the coast over OCN or from the NE over French Valley.  Approach KSEE from the backside east to west.  If you have flight following SOCAL will accommodate.  The terrain can be confusing getting into KSEE.  Your right base leg is east of the big hill on the east side of the airport. You can’t see the airport from behind the hill.  Your 27R final splits two hills. Study the terrain on the charts.   If I remember Lake Jennings and DEBEY are the last two helpful waypoints before KSEE.  A right turn at DEBEY puts you on the straight in for 27R.  Check my spelling though.  DEBEY may only be on the IFR chart.  BTW, my flight south was with flight following; the return flight north remained outside Class B without flight following.  

[katzhome]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:33 PM, DCarlton said:

Pull up Flightaware and look at how I flew from KCRQ to KSEE today and back.  That’s the easiest way.  Doesn’t matter whether you enter SOCAL from the coast over OCN or from the NE over French Valley.  Approach KSEE from the backside east to west.  If you have flight following SOCAL will accommodate.  The terrain can be confusing getting into KSEE.  Your right base leg is east of the big hill on the east side of the airport. You can’t see the airport from behind the hill.  Your 27R final splits two hills. Study the terrain on the charts.   If I remember Lake Jennings and DEBEY are the last two helpful waypoints before KSEE.  A right turn at DEBEY puts you on the straight in for 27R.  Check my spelling though.  DEBEY may only be on the IFR chart.  BTW, my flight south was with flight following; the return flight north remained outside Class B without flight following.  

Thanks @DCarlton!

I had watched some videos about that terrain.  Thanks for the waypoints too.  I did find DEBEY.  Looking forward to getting down there when the weather improves!

[carusoam]

+1 for flight following…

Long flights and lots of controlled airspace… it is really helpful to have somebody watching out for you…

Plus, you have a squawk code… they know who you are and where you are if you need them…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[katzhome]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:40 PM, Niko182 said:

I'd personally avoid "avoiding the bravo". Socal airspace seems scary, but really if you're on flight following it is quite easy. Coastal route will be approved, and Socal usually just ends up clearing you into the bravo of San Diego/ Miramar, in my experience. I used to fly out of John Wayne for about 10 years, so I know the airspace pretty well.

I'd do KRHV VNY VPLQM (Queen Mary) OCN VPSMS KSEE at 9500.

VNY to VPLQM is simply the hollywood park route. OCN keeps you going along the coast. You don't have to worry about R-2503D because 99% of the time, it is not active. VPSMS waypoint is added there to transition through the bravo shelves in between 3500 and 4500ft however I doubt you'll need it. A while ago I did KSNA - KSEE - KSNA twice in one day flying @ZuluZulu to his avionics shop and back. Through all 4 legs of the flight, we were cleared through the San Diego bravo. Going towards KSEE, they usually clear you through the bravo once you're 5 or 10 miles past KCRQ.

just my 2 cents.

Thanks @Niko182.  I was looking at the "avoid" option as per one of the earlier replies what to do if permission is not granted to enter the LAX Bravo.  This is helpful!  Now that I can carry passengers, hopefully me and my son can get some experience working with SoCal.

 

I appreciate the details of your experience.  It is much appreciated.

[DCarlton]

13 hours ago, katzhome said:

Thanks @DCarlton!

I had watched some videos about that terrain.  Thanks for the waypoints too.  I did find DEBEY.  Looking forward to getting down there when the weather improves!

One more tip if you haven't landed at an airport with parallel runways.  When you land on 27R (the longer wider one), you'll likely turn left to parking.  27L and 27R are close together.  You stop rather immediately once you've crossed the hold line short of 27L.  KSEE will want you to stay on the tower frequency between the runways, unless you're told to change to ground.  Have the taxiway diagram handy too.  When you get ATIS inbound, be listening for the two tower frequencies; one for 27R and one for 27L.  If you use those waypoints, you won't be confused by the many hills in that area.  Finally, the food at the cafe is good! I'm not a CFI, but when I first started flying, KSEE was one of my least favorite airports.  Now it's one of my favorite in the area.  Have fun! 

[katzhome]

55 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

One more tip if you haven't landed at an airport with parallel runways.  When you land on 27R (the longer wider one), you'll likely turn left to parking.  27L and 27R are close together.  You stop rather immediately once you've crossed the hold line short of 27L.  KSEE will want you to stay on the tower frequency between the runways, unless you're told to change to ground.  Have the taxiway diagram handy too.  When you get ATIS inbound, be listening for the two tower frequencies; one for 27R and one for 27L.  If you use those waypoints, you won't be confused by the many hills in that area.  Finally, the food at the cafe is good! I'm not a CFI, but when I first started flying, KSEE was one of my least favorite airports.  Now it's one of my favorite in the area.  Have fun! 

Luckily my training has been at KRHV, with parallel runways.  The 2 different frequencies is new though.  Thanks for the info!

[201Mooniac]

53 minutes ago, katzhome said:

Luckily my training has been at KRHV, with parallel runways.  The 2 different frequencies is new though.  Thanks for the info!

Hasn't happened much lately but KRHV used to use 126.1 for 31L/13R.  I think it was too confusing and the traffic didn't really demand it.

[katzhome]

14 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Hasn't happened much lately but KRHV used to use 126.1 for 31L/13R.  I think it was too confusing and the traffic didn't really demand it.

I think I remember it being like that for one afternoon during my training.  The tower folks do a great job with the traffic on busy days at KRHV.

[ZuluZulu]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:40 PM, Niko182 said:

I'd personally avoid "avoiding the bravo". Socal airspace seems scary, but really if you're on flight following it is quite easy. Coastal route will be approved, and Socal usually just ends up clearing you into the bravo of San Diego/ Miramar, in my experience. I used to fly out of John Wayne for about 10 years, so I know the airspace pretty well.

I'd do KRHV VNY VPLQM (Queen Mary) OCN VPSMS KSEE at 9500.

VNY to VPLQM is simply the hollywood park route. OCN keeps you going along the coast. You don't have to worry about R-2503D because 99% of the time, it is not active. VPSMS waypoint is added there to transition through the bravo shelves in between 3500 and 4500ft however I doubt you'll need it. A while ago I did KSNA - KSEE - KSNA twice in one day flying @ZuluZulu to his avionics shop and back. Through all 4 legs of the flight, we were cleared through the San Diego bravo. Going towards KSEE, they usually clear you through the bravo once you're 5 or 10 miles past KCRQ.

just my 2 cents.

All I remember from that flight is not getting much higher than 2500' MSL and being jealous of that panel.  

[katzhome]

And now it is late June and still haven't gone on this trip!  Playing with the routes for the Coastal Route as recommended by many of you, here is a shot at that flight plan.  Don, of course we could go high as well since we now have an O2 bottle!

 

 

[FJC]

My route has been PXN AVE PMD VPLC HDF to F70. Its less busy, plus I dont have to deal with potential vectors and restrictions near KONT! Now only that, lower terrain through Cajon Pass is appreciated. You can do this at 9500 no problem. Once you get into KONT area, there is lots of traffic regardless.

Continuing on, one easy way to get to KSEE from there is to go direct from HDF to RNM, underfly the Bravo 100/48 turning east 20 degrees or so, then turn to VPSLJ, then into KSEE.

I too have used LHS and DARTS higher at 11,500, but coastal marine layer at the time was a concern so my Bay Area to SD area is going to be as shown on the first line. Plus those will put you into high traffic.

Just more thoughts for you!

[ZuluZulu]

22 hours ago, FJC said:

Continuing on, one easy way to get to KSEE from there is to go direct from HDF to RNM, underfly the Bravo 100/48 turning east 20 degrees or so, then turn to VPSLJ, then into KSEE.

Not as easy as being cleared direct through the Bravo from 30nm out  ... but it's always good to have a backup plan!  Just keep in mind there sometimes can be heavy training traffic in the vicinity of Ramona and the San Vicente Reservoir.  And if there are wildfires in the area, it's best to avoid Ramona due to heavy firefighting traffic operating from Cal Fire's Ramona Air Attack Base.

[katzhome]

On 7/27/2023 at 12:08 PM, FJC said:

My route has been PXN AVE PMD VPLC HDF to F70. Its less busy, plus I dont have to deal with potential vectors and restrictions near KONT! Now only that, lower terrain through Cajon Pass is appreciated. You can do this at 9500 no problem. Once you get into KONT area, there is lots of traffic regardless.

Continuing on, one easy way to get to KSEE from there is to go direct from HDF to RNM, underfly the Bravo 100/48 turning east 20 degrees or so, then turn to VPSLJ, then into KSEE.

I too have used LHS and DARTS higher at 11,500, but coastal marine layer at the time was a concern so my Bay Area to SD area is going to be as shown on the first line. Plus those will put you into high traffic.

Just more thoughts for you!

@FJC Thank you for the additional tips!  What waypoint is VPLC?  I think that would mean Cajon Pass (VPLCP)?

[FJC]

Yes! VPLCP...sorry about that.