OMG, I WANT this panel

[hais]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:40 PM, gmonnig said:

Wonder how Garmin got the TBM940 certified without a compass? I get where people are coming from with this but how many levels of protection do we need? What if a screen goes out? A-Well there’s a redundant screen? What if the ships power is lost? A- The units have a battery backup. What if the magnetometer goes out? Well the screens are connected to a waas navigator and revert to ground track, still better than a compass. What happens if you must shed an electrical load and can’t keep the GTN powered, and simultaneously lose the gmu11 heading reference? Well, it’s time to start cranking the gear down to land….. and I still have four battery backed up screens. Both 275s, the Tie breaking AV20S, and an iPad running with a Stratus 3 ADAHRS. The iPad approach could certainly save the day. It’s a miracle that I used to fly IFR with a single vacuum pump, single nav radio, and paper charts. Kind of gives me the chills now. 

Wouldn't it be nice to have a cold figure for total failure probability for a specific panel configuration? I suspect such a figure would be bad for avionics business when owners start to question the value of adding a layer X. 

[hais]

Food for thought: if you do have total electrical failure and all your backup batteries are dead, and you are:

1. IMC - how useful is a whiskey compass in maintaining control?

2. Day VMC - how useful is it for navigating to an emergency landing? If you are over water and far from land, I could see how pointing towards land might help. If you are over land though, how helpful is it to know the general direction? 

[gmonnig]

35 minutes ago, hais said:

Food for thought: if you do have total electrical failure and all your backup batteries are dead, and you are:

1. IMC - how useful is a whiskey compass in maintaining control?

2. Day VMC - how useful is it for navigating to an emergency landing? If you are over water and far from land, I could see how pointing towards land might help. If you are over land though, how helpful is it to know the general direction? 

I'm a controller and have given no-gyro vectors quite a few times. I even gave an old  King Air A90 no-gyro vectors last summer. Got him where he needed to go. His HSI was messed up, IMC and I just asked if his Attitude indicator or turn coordinator was working. He gave the affirmative and away we went. "Half standard rate turn to the right.... Start turn.... stop turn." Gave it a few minutes then updated his heading again. Pretty easy. I did ask if he could fly a heading with the compass and he said maybe but the reverse sensing messed with him in the clouds. Got him to VMC conditions and magically the HSI came alive again. 
 

The Attitude indicator and a controller is more help than the compass when poo hits the fan. 

[gmonnig]

5 hours ago, glbtrottr said:

Yikes.

When I read how much you all pay for avionics installs, my heart is crushed. Y’all must have Veryon’s in your driveways….

I get that time is money and all. Garmin charges a ton of insane money because we feed the beast and pay it. Their margins are insane. I despise giving money to garmin as much as I dislike paying the IRS.

I cut my teeth installing a KcS55a in my 172. Pain in the rump, but done. After that? A little MX20/GMX200 and a 430 was cake.

Installing a 650 from a 430 isn’t that difficult - just takes a little time. A G5? Cake. Navcom’s and transponders? No big issue.

Remote transponders and other things get tricky but ok.

If I can save 25/30k by painting my own airplanes or 50/60k by pinning my own avionics under supervision, I’ll gladly spend my money on other things. A nice pair of magnified glasses, strippers and crimpers, wax cord, pins and a bright light, I’m golden…

I get this 100%. I am very hands on with permission from two A&Ps and the most difficult stuff done by my "dealer.... Garmin Dealer that is". I too hate paying for multiple subscriptions that drive up the fixed costs of flying and Garmin has a monopoly on avionics now. It's irritating enough that I am at the cusp of going experimental so I can do all of the work on my plane. To save a few grand a year on annuals and not have to wait months or a year to get work done on the Mooney is a huge benefit. I'm gonna start a new post on what people would build, if they could.

[hais]

14 hours ago, gmonnig said:

I get this 100%. I am very hands on with permission from two A&Ps and the most difficult stuff done by my "dealer.... Garmin Dealer that is". I too hate paying for multiple subscriptions that drive up the fixed costs of flying and Garmin has a monopoly on avionics now. It's irritating enough that I am at the cusp of going experimental so I can do all of the work on my plane. To save a few grand a year on annuals and not have to wait months or a year to get work done on the Mooney is a huge benefit. I'm gonna start a new post on what people would build, if they could.

For me the LX-7 please, and if it's not too much asking, make it FIKI. 

[EricJ]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:04 PM, philiplane said:

You have to retain the magnetic compass for the eventuality of glass panel failure, or electrical system failure. 

A "compass" is no longer required.   The regs now say a "magnetic direction indicator", which can include a device driven by a magnetometer.  Backup power requirements apply.

This came up when I got my multi-engine rating in a new Seminole that didn't have a compass.   The chief instructor at that school said he wouldn't fly it until they got a letter from Piper explaining it wasn't required.

[philiplane]

The backup power requirements for a remote magnetic direction indicator usually drive the retention of a standard compass, for simplicity.

For example, the Garmin G5 has a remote compass, which works fine, until the G5 goes to battery backup. Then it loses power to the CANBUS that powers the remote compass, and you lose heading information. Quite a large oversight on Garmin's part. All CANBUS style systems suffer this basic flaw. And there is no approved way to power the CANBUS from backup batteries. So they require a standard compass. 

[philiplane]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:03 PM, hais said:

Food for thought: if you do have total electrical failure and all your backup batteries are dead, and you are:

1. IMC - how useful is a whiskey compass in maintaining control?

2. Day VMC - how useful is it for navigating to an emergency landing? If you are over water and far from land, I could see how pointing towards land might help. If you are over land though, how helpful is it to know the general direction? 

A whiskey compass is remarkably easy to maintain wings level once you realize the lubber line really represents the tail, not the nose. Swing the tail to the heading you want. I instruct pilots to control the plane using needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter, and compass only. If they have an attitude indicator failure in IMC, it is a non-event.

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, EricJ said:

A "compass" is no longer required.   The regs now say a "magnetic direction indicator", which can include a device driven by a magnetometer.  Backup power requirements apply.

This came up when I got my multi-engine rating in a new Seminole that didn't have a compass.   The chief instructor at that school said he wouldn't fly it until they got a letter from Piper explaining it wasn't required.

The PA46T I fly doesn’t have one either. Haven’t noticed it being necessary.  No gyro vectors or ipad track be fine if i was really hurting.

On the other hand, thank god the F-15E has a whiskey compass! We got a big software upgrade right before we deployed to Afghanistan in 2007. I swear I had to navigate solely off the magnetic compass twice during that deployment. One time at night, and there are zero cultural lights there.  I was just leaving the tanker and everything went black.  I was down to a real old and questionable electric gyro backup ADI (peanut gage - which is conveniently placed just above where the fuel selector is on a Mooney, and we had a center stick) and that compass.  I really wanted to get out of that tanker track without flying into Iran while we reset everything (and kicked the airplane a few times)!  
 

The other time was above an overcast near the Pakistan border.  Happened to have the group commander as my wingman and I didn’t want to give up the lead!  INS was out to lunch.  That Jet thought it was in India!  Airborne alignment with a 1980s INS is dicey.  I had to let him lead for a while lest we end up over Islamabad.  

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, philiplane said:

The backup power requirements for a remote magnetic direction indicator usually drive the retention of a standard compass, for simplicity.

For example, the Garmin G5 has a remote compass, which works fine, until the G5 goes to battery backup. Then it loses power to the CANBUS that powers the remote compass, and you lose heading information. Quite a large oversight on Garmin's part. All CANBUS style systems suffer this basic flaw. And there is no approved way to power the CANBUS from backup batteries. So they require a standard compass. 

The Seminole I flew with no compass had a G1000 panel with an Aspen backup.   However that system is architected it alleviated the need for a compass.

 

[hais]

2 hours ago, philiplane said:

A whiskey compass is remarkably easy to maintain wings level once you realize the lubber line really represents the tail, not the nose. Swing the tail to the heading you want. I instruct pilots to control the plane using needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter, and compass only. If they have an attitude indicator failure in IMC, it is a non-event.

That works. However, the setup was that you only have glass and a compass, and you have complete loss of glass and glass backups - so no primaries at all - just the compass to save the day. 

Of course an argument could be made to leave in the vacuum instruments...

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

The Seminole I flew with no compass had a G1000 panel with an Aspen backup.   However that system is architected it alleviated the need for a compass.

 

The Cessna G1000 will have a magnetometer and the Aspen has its own plus a battery good for about 45 min so maybe that was enough.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

The PA46T I fly doesn’t have one either. Haven’t noticed it being necessary.  No gyro vectors or ipad track be fine if i was really hurting.

On the other hand, thank god the F-15E has a whiskey compass! We got a big software upgrade right before we deployed to Afghanistan in 2007. I swear I had to navigate solely off the magnetic compass twice during that deployment. One time at night, and there are zero cultural lights there.  I was just leaving the tanker and everything went black.  I was down to a real old and questionable electric gyro backup ADI (peanut gage - which is conveniently placed just above where the fuel selector is on a Mooney, and we had a center stick) and that compass.  I really wanted to get out of that tanker track without flying into Iran while we reset everything (and kicked the airplane a few times)!  
 

The other time was above an overcast near the Pakistan border.  Happened to have the group commander as my wingman and I didn’t want to give up the lead!  INS was out to lunch.  That Jet thought it was in India!  Airborne alignment with a 1980s INS is dicey.  I had to let him lead for a while lest we end up over Islamabad.  

You have all the fun.

[ilovecornfields]

12 hours ago, PT20J said:

You have all the fun.

I agree. I always wanted to fly an F-15 since I played the video game on my Apple IIe. I remember reading it had a rate of climb of 50,000 fpm and it was the only fighter that could accelerate during a vertical climb because it’s thrust exceeded its weight.

And I thought my Ovation on a cold day was pretty sporty!

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/104499/f-15e-strike-eagle/

[Sue Bon]

On 12/20/2022 at 10:41 PM, glbtrottr said:

If I can save 25/30k by painting my own airplanes or 50/60k by pinning my own avionics under supervision, I’ll gladly spend my money on other things.

Swapping out instruments is one thing. Updating the autopilot and integrating all the new instruments and antennas, etc. is another. I would never trust myself with this....

[Sue Bon]

And, let the record show, if I could save 50k, I would do it in a heartbeat!

[rbp]

On 12/21/2022 at 8:11 PM, philiplane said:

A whiskey compass is remarkably easy to maintain wings level once you realize the lubber line really represents the tail, not the nose. Swing the tail to the heading you want. I instruct pilots to control the plane using needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter, and compass only. If they have an attitude indicator failure in IMC, it is a non-event.

"needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter, and compass" 

 

for an instrument student who will be flying a six-pack, sure.  

but plenty of us don't have steam gauges anymore, and I am no longer current in needle/ball/compass partial panel, or terrestrial VOR-A or DME arc approaches. my plane goes forward, not backwards. 

[glbtrottr]

Swapping out instruments is one thing. Updating the autopilot and integrating all the new instruments and antennas, etc. is another. I would never trust myself with this...

Why not? of course you could …

All I wanted was an HSI in my 172 lol …I still had the GX60 here. It went GNS480, SL30, etc.. if only Aspen or other solutions existed then

I tore it up again and I’m in the middle of putting in a certified internal GPs Navworx/SL70 setup.

why would I want a GTN650 with all the rest of the expense? I still get panel mounted ADSB in, moving plates, GPS approaches, and I didn’t hand over tens of thousands to the avionics shop.

The KCS 55 really was a challenge.

I appreciate ADSB, but between Garmin playing the S mode game then lobbying congress to mandate ADSB and not using mode s for ADSB to killing support on radios just seemed like premeditated highway robbery. Margin on Garmin boxes is insane. I refuse to give Garmin money if I can help it.

Moreover, the amount of wires to install a G5 or even a GTN is ridiculously small and keeps getting simpler.









Im about to change over my K model Mooney with a GMX200, GTN650, ADSB in/out, EDM900 etc. build the harness on the bench, wax cord it, test it, and in the plane it goes. I’d do an avidyne but I couldn’t pass up a deal on a 650.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sue Bon]

1 hour ago, glbtrottr said:

Im about to change over my K model Mooney with a GMX200, GTN650, ADSB in/out, EDM900 etc. build the harness on the bench, wax cord it, test it, and in the plane it goes.

*tips hat*

You sir, are braver than I.

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, glbtrottr said:

Im about to change over my K model Mooney with a GMX200, GTN650,

The GMX-200 was great with my pair of GNS-430W's. But I would never install it with GTN's. Instead of the GTN-650 and GMX-200, it would make much mire sense to install the GTN-750.

[glbtrottr]

The GMX-200 was great with my pair of GNS-430W's. But I would never install it with GTN's. Instead of the GTN-650 and GMX-200, it would make much mire sense to install the GTN-750.

That’s all great.

As I said…

Im not keeping up with the joneses.

The gmx200 is already there. If it adds value I’ll use it otherwise I’ll pull it.

I don’t feel like spending extra AMU’s for an oh so pretty larger screen. Others can afford shiny new acclaims and bravos. Me? My paid off K model will do just fine with its current coupled 430/gmx200, I May upgrade to the gtn but I refuse to buy into the Garmin forced bandwagon upgrade train if I can help it - the point of my post.


I recently saw an avionics shop install a GTN650 for $14k without any substantial additional interfaces. What?? Just to install a radio?

I’m not playing monopoly in aviation and would be content flying behind my gx50 and foreflight if that’s what I had. People often make aviation unnecessarily expensive. If more people can enjoy the reality of flying reasonably without having to shell out more AMU’s, I’m happy to help.

[Guest]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:03 PM, ArtVandelay said:

Show me a NTSB report that blames an accident on a missing calibration card for the whisky compass.

We would hate to have you be the first!