Tempest lawsuit letter

[WAFI]

Well... I'm not not sure how I'm supposed to feel now. I just picked up my first set of fine wire URHM38S yesterday and was planning on installing them later today.

Should I be nervous of a potential failure?

Maybe I should be excited that a got a great deal on them at $127 a pop for a pre-lawsuit discount?

[MisfitSELF]

For whatever reason I'm just picking up on this thread and the other thread from back in 2018-2020 about this issue.  Just two months ago, I discoved that one of my Tempest Fine wires lost it's center plug.  I just thought, at the time, it's just goes with the territory.  Now I'm glad I've held on to the plug.  I've emailed John at Tempest to see if they have any guidance for me.

 

Bruce

Edited October 19, 2022 by MisfitSELF

[WAFI]

3 minutes ago, MisfitSELF said:

For whatever reason I'm just picking up on this thread and the other thread from back in 2018-2020 about this issue.  Just two months ago, I discovery that one of my Tempest Fine wires lost it's center plug.  I just thought at the time, it's just goes with the territory.  Now I'm glad I've held on to the plug.  I've emailed John at Tempest to see if they have any guidance for me.

 

Bruce

How did you catch it?

Performance loss or just under inspection?

[A64Pilot]

24 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Well... I'm not not sure how I'm supposed to feel now. I just picked up my first set of fine wire URHM38S yesterday and was planning on installing them later today.

Should I be nervous of a potential failure?

Maybe I should be excited that a got a great deal on them at $127 a pop for a pre-lawsuit discount?

Fine wires are excellent, just learn how to clean them and they will last the life of the engine, on two engines I installed them on they made more difference than the Gami injectors did, you can run smoother LOP and a Lycoming fuel injected starts better when hot.

I’d install them with no concern whatsoever.

‘In my opinion on this accident airplane he may have been worse off with massive as they foul easier, that’s sort of the point of a fine wire, the fine wire is harder to foul, plus being made from exotic material it wears very much slower.

I never blasted my fine wires, I only used a fine awl, ice pick if you will to dig the lead / carbon out.

In my opinion a lot of good plugs are damaged during cleaning. trying to make them look new may damage them, just dig the carbon / lead out

https://tempestplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Sparkplug-Cleaning-The-Right-Way-081412.pdf

[WAFI]

1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

Fine wires are excellent, just learn how to clean them and they will last the life of the engine, one two engines I installed them on they made more difference than the Gami injectors did, you can run smoother LOP and a Lycoming fuel injected starts better when hot.

I’d install them with no concern whatsoever.

‘In my opinion on this accident airplane he may have been worse off with massive sad they foul easier, that’s sort of the point if a fine wire, the fine wire is harder to foul, plus being made from exotic material it wears very much slower.

Good to know from a fellow Floridian. I like the hot start improvement and regarding Gami injectors. I've been on the fence if they are actually worth it for my motor. I've done the Gami spread test a couple of times and my motor seam pretty damn good but non the other hand I was by myself doing it and not real sure if I preformed it correctly. Regardless my CHT and EGT spread is minimal. 

[A64Pilot]

Honestly CHT is often a function of baffling efficiency and EGT is often indicative of that cylinders compression.

Neither is from mixture unless mixture is WAY out.

(in my opinion) if your engine will run smoothly further LOP than you intend to run, you have nothing to fix. Save your money for fuel or oil changes. I don’t even have an engine monitor and therefore can’t run a “Gami test” but my engine will run smoothly at least 50C LOP, that’s 122 F LOP, much much leaner than you have any need to run. Why even try to improve on that?

Now unless things have changed if I needed injectors for some reason, I’d buy Gami’s because it’s likely they are just as good as Lycoming’s but are significantly less expensive.

It’s been I guess 10 years since I bought them but back then they were much less expensive than OEM

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, WAFI said:

Well... I'm not not sure how I'm supposed to feel now. I just picked up my first set of fine wire URHM38S yesterday and was planning on installing them later today.

Should I be nervous of a potential failure?

Maybe I should be excited that a got a great deal on them at $127 a pop for a pre-lawsuit discount?

The rest of the story is Tempest had outsourced the welding of the center electrode.   They then brought it back in house.   I would think unless there was lots of dust on your plugs from sitting on the shelf they should be fine.    that said with the whole traceability parts you should be able to get the code off the plugs.  Send it to Tempest and have them respond if that batch was welded in house.

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Yeap.  

If the instructors don't know or remember, the student never learns.

They call it training mixture for a reason.   Just leave that knob alone and fly the plane.

[DXB]

Interesting points on fine wires made here. When I got my plane in 2014 (C model with an carb'd O-360), it had Champion massive plugs up top and Champion fine wires on the bottom (likely installed by previous owner because of fouling problems on the bottom). The bottom fine wire plugs would still foul like crazy unless I leaned very aggressively on the ground.  After they fouled once in flight and gave me a little scare, I was done with them.  It turns out back then Champion plugs had a high resistance issue and that was probably the critical factor, not the fine wire design - all my plugs had the resistance issue when tested upon removal.  As a new inexperienced owner, I was afraid of cleaning the delicate appearing fine wires, so I replaced with Tempest UREM37BY plugs, which have a longer center electrode for foul resistance, and they have served me very well. However, they require regular cleaning and gapping and replacement every 400-500 hours.  Based on @A64Pilot's guidance, I'll probably put all fine wires on my engine after overhauling it in the next couple years.  

[WAFI]

5 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The rest of the story is Tempest had outsourced the welding of the center electrode.   They then brought it back in house.   I would think unless there was lots of dust on your plugs from sitting on the shelf they should be fine.    that said with the whole traceability parts you should be able to get the code off the plugs.  Send it to Tempest and have them respond if that batch was welded in house.

No dust on these bad boys. They are all encased in a thin but hard clear plastic sealed sleeve.

[A64Pilot]

Massive if maintained are fine.

I’m running massive myself now, because that’s what was in the airplane when I bought it. I may go to fine wires when the massives wear out.

If you remove, clean and rotate your massive every 50 hours I doubt you will ever have a problem with them.

So is the $1,000 dollars for a four cylinder set of fine wires worth it? Hard to justify, that’s almost 200 gls of gas.

But in my opinion I wouldn’t replace massives until they are worn out.

‘Fine wires are $100 a plug more, but if they last 2,000 hours, maybe they are a bargain?

[DXB]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Fine wires are excellent, just learn how to clean them and they will last the life of the engine, on two engines I installed them on they made more difference than the Gami injectors did, you can run smoother LOP and a Lycoming fuel injected starts better when hot.

I’d install them with no concern whatsoever.

‘In my opinion on this accident airplane he may have been worse off with massive as they foul easier, that’s sort of the point of a fine wire, the fine wire is harder to foul, plus being made from exotic material it wears very much slower.

I never blasted my fine wires, I only used a fine awl, ice pick if you will to dig the lead / carbon out.

In my opinion a lot of good plugs are damaged during cleaning. trying to make them look new may damage them, just dig the carbon / lead out

https://tempestplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Sparkplug-Cleaning-The-Right-Way-081412.pdf

This video from Champion gives me confidence that I'd be able to maintain their fine wire plugs safely - I think they are in my future.  Ironically, I swore I'd never buy Champion anything again after their plug resistance issue, which they ultimately resolved quietly without ever admitting it.  Now Tempest seems to be in a similar pickle - there were at least some batches of fine wires that were prone to lose their center electrode.  Admitting the issue, recalling the relevant plugs, and detailing the fix in public leaves them on the hook for a lot, perhaps including in relation to this lawsuit, although like you I seriously doubt the plug was a critical factor in this crash. They've likely already identified and quietly resolved this manufacturing issue, but since they have incentives not to detail the problem and their fix, it's hard to be sure.

 

 

[Yetti]

Back to the original topic.   Sure put me on the stand "Holy crap did you see picture of those plugs?   I am surprised any of them were firing and he could even get off the ground, much less start the engine"

[Guest]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Massive if maintained are fine.

I’m running massive myself now, because that’s what was in the airplane when I bought it. I may go to fine wires when the massives wear out.

If you remove, clean and rotate your massive every 50 hours I doubt you will ever have a problem with them.

So is the $1,000 dollars for a four cylinder set of fine wires worth it? Hard to justify, that’s almost 200 gls of gas.

But in my opinion I wouldn’t replace massives until they are worn out.

‘Fine wires are $100 a plug more, but if they last 2,000 hours, maybe they are a bargain?

RAM Aircraft suggests that fine wire plugs are more fuel efficient as well.

https://www.ramaircraft.com/spark-plugs

[WAFI]

Well guys, I’m taking a leap of faith here. I installed my Fine Wires a long with giving my injectors a little spa treatment a few hours ago. 

Maybe I’m suffering from another placebo effect but she purred like a kitten.  

All I accomplished was a couple of run ups an a taxi over to the self serve fuel for Friday afternoons flight but it was smooth.

Now I need to read up on the JPI LOP procedure again. 

[KSMooniac]

I put Tempest fines in my J 10+? years ago, and even carried them over after my overhaul.  Last year I replaced a couple that failed the resistance check.  Later at OSH, Tempest said I should have sent them in for a free replacement too!  I don't remember exactly when they went in, but they have over 1000 hours on them so far.  I would choose them again.  Great LOP performance, smooth running.  Perhaps more efficient too.  My GAMI spread is 0.0, really, on stock injectors.  

I'll change them out when adding the Electroair ignition to their recommended massives, though.  I'm anxious to see how everything works after that upgrade.

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I haven’t been following this whole Tempest spark plug quality control saga, so forgive me.  Is it limited to their fine wires or are their massives affected too?  I ask because I recently purchased a set of Tempest massives for my C model but I haven’t installed them yet   The Champion massives that are currently installed are coming up on 500 hours, which is when I preventatively replace them and IRAN the mags.   

In several decades of flying Mooneys I have never had a fouled plug.  For our Lycoming four bangers just get in the habit of leaning to under 2 GPH for all ground operations and they are a thing of the past.  

Just fine wires, most likely when they had subcontracted the welding of the electrode out a few years back.

[hais]

9 hours ago, Yetti said:

They call it training mixture for a reason.   Just leave that knob alone and fly the plane.

I had real fear of the red knob. My instructor demonstrated why I should never touch the knob by cutting the engine during run up and threw in the question on what I'd do if that happened in flight. Trust me, that does leave quite an impression...

It took another instructor and a few lessons for me to overcome the fear. 

[WAFI]

12 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I put Tempest fines in my J 10+? years ago, and even carried them over after my overhaul.  Last year I replaced a couple that failed the resistance check.  Later at OSH, Tempest said I should have sent them in for a free replacement too!  I don't remember exactly when they went in, but they have over 1000 hours on them so far.  I would choose them again.  Great LOP performance, smooth running.  Perhaps more efficient too.  My GAMI spread is 0.0, really, on stock injectors.  

I'll change them out when adding the Electroair ignition to their recommended massives, though.  I'm anxious to see how everything works after that upgrade.

I would love to hear your feedback on the Electroair.

Maybe we can get electronic automated variable fuel mixing one day. A couple extra sensors, an algorithm, a control processor, maybe a servo and boom no more red handle. 

[DXB]

17 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I haven’t been following this whole Tempest spark plug quality control saga, so forgive me.  Is it limited to their fine wires or are their massives affected too?  I ask because I recently purchased a set of Tempest massives for my C model but I haven’t installed them yet   The Champion massives that are currently installed are coming up on 500 hours, which is when I preventatively replace them and IRAN the mags.   

In several decades of flying Mooneys I have never had a fouled plug.  For our Lycoming four bangers just get in the habit of leaning to under 2 GPH for all ground operations and they are a thing of the past.  

Not that I know of - it's just the fine wires.  I've been running Tempest UREM37BY massives without issue for over 7 years - I'll put in my 3rd set in 50 hours.  As you note, they last about 500 hrs. 

[philiplane]

37 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I put Tempest fines in my J 10+? years ago, and even carried them over after my overhaul.  Last year I replaced a couple that failed the resistance check.  Later at OSH, Tempest said I should have sent them in for a free replacement too!  I don't remember exactly when they went in, but they have over 1000 hours on them so far.  I would choose them again.  Great LOP performance, smooth running.  Perhaps more efficient too.  My GAMI spread is 0.0, really, on stock injectors.  

I'll change them out when adding the Electroair ignition to their recommended massives, though.  I'm anxious to see how everything works after that upgrade.

I would install the Surefly instead of the Electroair. Faster install, less expensive, more durable, no life-limited plug wires, same or better performance due to the dual input advance curve.  EA only uses MP for advance, Surefly uses MP and RPM.

I've installed both EA and Surefly systems for customers. But I have the Surefly on my own plane. And have had Tempest fine wires for more than ten years. I've also had two customers remove their EA systems and install the Surefly, and know of several more that have done so.

Edited October 19, 2022 by philiplane

[WAFI]

31 minutes ago, philiplane said:

I would install the Surefly instead of the Electroair. Faster install, less expensive, more durable, no life-limited plug wires, same or better performance due to the dual input advance curve.  EA only uses MP for advance, Surefly uses MP and RPM.

I've installed both EA and Surefly systems for customers. But I have the Surefly on my own plane. And have had Tempest fine wires for more than ten years. I've also had two customers remove their EA systems and install the Surefly, and know of several more that have done so.

Does Surefly offer a product for Dual Mag engines? 

[toto]

48 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Does Surefly offer a product for Dual Mag engines? 

Electroair has the only available electronic replacement for the Bendix dual mag. 

[MisfitSELF]

13 hours ago, WAFI said:

How did you catch it?

Performance loss or just under inspection?

Performance.  I had just installed a surefly and instead of making everything better, it seemed everything got worse.  Harder starts, more not less fuel burn, less power not more power etc.  It happened that this plug was one of the four ignited by the Surefly.  I'm still digging through some issues but one of the steps was inspect and clean and regap the plugs and that's when I discovered this plug was bad.

 

 

[MisfitSELF]

2 hours ago, hais said:

I had real fear of the red knob. My instructor demonstrated why I should never touch the knob by cutting the engine during run up and threw in the question on what I'd do if that happened in flight. Trust me, that does leave quite an impression...

It took another instructor and a few lessons for me to overcome the fear. 

That first instructor should give up his/her certificate.