ATC reroute, reroute, reroute…

[BravoWhiskey]

The other day I had a relatively short flight  of about 195nm.  Filed for IFR using ForeFlight.  So far so good… but then when I called to copy I get this… “standby, your flight plan was not accepted.  Have new route for you.”  So I copy the new route. No problem… taxi to runway and call for clearance to takeoff (have to call by phone as no radio signal for clearance at field).  Response was HFR I have a new route for you…. UGH!  Ok so I copy the new clearance and load that in and cleared for takeoff.  Switch to radio and call in to departure.  Wouldn’t you know it they have another reroute…

I accept and agree to copy as the previous clearance put me a bit far over the ocean.  I was high enough in my climb to switch to autopilot and start copying new route.  While all of this was occurring my trim alarm (My elec trim is currently INOP) was going off in the background.  I was busy trying to copy new route and I am right handed so adjusting the trim wheel and copying route was not going to occur at the same time.  While in a turn my autopilot disengaged most likely because of the trim not being addressed and I was now in a continuous turn.  I was IMC and didn’t realize this until ATC asked if I was direct Robbinsville.  At that point I thought my navigation was failing.  I acknowledge some sort of navigational issue and they gave me a heading.  
I sorted it all out and got dialed back in all while IMC. I radioed back in to ATC and told them I was all sorted out.  They apologized for constant changes which I appreciated.  I think they believe they overloaded me and I am sure they are grateful that continuous turn  wasn’t the start of a death spiral… I am also grateful for this!

In the end it is all my responsibility and I am going to admit I violated the rule of aviate, navigate, communicate.  I was trying to work with ATC first.  Next time I will ask them to standby until I am straight and level or at least straight with a long continuous climb… 

the other thing I learned is maybe when given a reroute I should tell them unable if I don’t agree with it.  During the same flight I listened to an airliner tell ATC they needed higher for glide distance to shore or an alternate route.  ATC agreed immediately to higher altitude.  As a low time pilot I think I am not confident enough to ask them to wait while I figure stuff out or to negotiate with them when I disagree with routing or altitudes.  I need to work on that…

anyway, just sharing an experience.

[kortopates]

One of the most important rules i learned about instrument flying is the 3 sec rule.
It’s as simple as under no circumstance should we take our eyes off the instruments for more than 3 secs at a time or we could easily find ourselves be in a similar situation.
You’re very fortunate to recover quickly avoid being deviated. many pilots have been deviated in busy airspace by an unexpected heading or altitude change leading to a PD from a loss of separation.
good lesson to learn by.


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[Danb]

Recently had same situation, I asked for a heading while getting everything sorted out, I feel they understand workload issues. If you don’t mention anything they figure your on top of everything. Not a problem making them slowdown a little while you get organized. Today I flew into Manassas in the SFRA, on departure at 500 feet they gave me the departure procedure not on the ground while gaining my clearance, it’d make more sense to provide it in the clearance, even though I’m in busy airspace with restricted airspace all around departure just gave me headings while navigating through the SFRA. Great controller’s today at Potomac. Basically saying take it easy and request assistance while your getting situated 

[ilovecornfields]

Thanks for sharing your experience. “Unable” is a powerful word. When I first started flying I though of ATC clearances as the only option. It wasn’t until later that I realized it was just the first offer in a negation. If you like the offer then take it but if it doesn’t work for you let them know.

98% of controllers are very accommodating 98% of the time. Sometimes less so in busy airspace but they’ll still try to help you out.  Keep in mind that most of them aren’t GA pilots so they may not realize how challenging it is at times. Single pilot IFR isn’t for the weak.

[whiskytango]

One of the things I do before filing is to go on ForeFlight and look at the routing that other aircraft have been given for the departure and destination airports of the flight I am planning.  Many times I will see that ATC has cleared flights multiple, sometimes hundreds of times, on a specific routing.  I file that routing and am given that route by Clearance Delivery, however invariably I get multiple reroutes shortly after entering the system.  Just because you are cleared for a route by Clearance Delivery doesn't mean that you will actually fly that route.  An autopilot sure comes in handy when reprogramming the GPS.

Rather than get annoyed, I think of the words of Consigliere Tom Hagen: "This is business, not personal!"

[gmonnig]

As a pilot and controller, I too get very irritated at all the reroutes. We had a similar experience last week when I flew from Kansas City to San Diego. Long way in a Mooney but the reroutes costed an additional hour to our already long flight. Twice I had approach (PHX and SoCal) ask "what is your destination and where are you going?" Well considering we were IFR, this made the two controllers in the cockpit very nervous. Like, "how the hell do you NOT know where we are going?"

[BravoWhiskey]

11 hours ago, whiskytango said:

One of the things I do before filing is to go on ForeFlight and look at the routing that other aircraft have been given for the departure and destination airports of the flight I am planning.  Many times I will see that ATC has cleared flights multiple, sometimes hundreds of times, on a specific routing.  I file that routing and am given that route by Clearance Delivery, however invariably I get multiple reroutes shortly after entering the system.  Just because you are cleared for a route by Clearance Delivery doesn't mean that you will actually fly that route.  An autopilot sure comes in handy when reprogramming the GPS.

Rather than get annoyed, I think of the words of Consigliere Tom Hagen: "This is business, not personal!"

That’s what I usually do and did the same this time.  They ran me through 3 of the 7 options on ForeFlight all before reaching my first waypoint.  But I’ll say this, I got real fast at programming flight plans!  I actually found it to be a good exercise

[BravoWhiskey]

10 hours ago, gmonnig said:

As a pilot and controller, I too get very irritated at all the reroutes. We had a similar experience last week when I flew from Kansas City to San Diego. Long way in a Mooney but the reroutes costed an additional hour to our already long flight. Twice I had approach (PHX and SoCal) ask "what is your destination and where are you going?" Well considering we were IFR, this made the two controllers in the cockpit very nervous. Like, "how the hell do you NOT know where we are going?"

I think if I was on a longer flight and a reroute added time and fuel consumption I would have been much more likely to say hold up let’s look at this again…  

my flight back home the same day presented another scenario.  On climb out to 3k tower told me to maintain VFR.  I was IFR and had IMC at about 2000 msl which I was just about to enter.  So I asked for immediate clarification.  Response was to disregard.  So that worked out fine.

[midlifeflyer]

16 hours ago, BravoWhiskey said:

During the same flight I listened to an airliner tell ATC they needed higher for glide distance to shore or an alternate route.  ATC agreed immediately to higher altitude.  As a low time pilot I think I am not confident enough to ask them to wait while I figure stuff out or to negotiate with them when I disagree with routing or altitudes.  I need to work on that…

Yes, you absolutely need to work on that essential skill. Part situational awareness and part accepting controllers are partners, not bosses. 

[whiskytango]

11 hours ago, gmonnig said:

As a pilot and controller, I too get very irritated at all the reroutes. We had a similar experience last week when I flew from Kansas City to San Diego. Long way in a Mooney but the reroutes costed an additional hour to our already long flight. Twice I had approach (PHX and SoCal) ask "what is your destination and where are you going?" Well considering we were IFR, this made the two controllers in the cockpit very nervous. Like, "how the hell do you NOT know where we are going?"

I have also had controllers ask if I am IFR or VFR. Why wouldn't they have that information?

[M20F]

When it is busy and a full reroute is coming I find saying unable full copy can I get just the next fix works well.  Get things cleaned up and then go back and pick up the rest. 
 
I do love the situation you describe especially in the high volume terminal areas where you redo GPS six times with a million fixes.  Five mins after the last sixty waypoint reroute ATC then clears you direct destination.  Good times…

[gmonnig]

3 hours ago, whiskytango said:

I have also had controllers ask if I am IFR or VFR. Why wouldn't they have that information?

I know in the Center environment, it's easier for us to type certain things. Approach doesn't like amending flight plans for some reason. Laziness, maybe? But most likely is has to do with the different facilities radar feeds and computer systems that don't talk to each other. We can type in VFR/055 in the data block that says "this guy is VFR now and cruising at 5500ft". Routing is a whole new can of worms. It gets complicated but our airspace does have a few "weird spots" that require routing to make the flight plans process to the approach facilities. 

[gmonnig]

4 hours ago, BravoWhiskey said:

I think if I was on a longer flight and a reroute added time and fuel consumption I would have been much more likely to say hold up let’s look at this again…  

my flight back home the same day presented another scenario.  On climb out to 3k tower told me to maintain VFR.  I was IFR and had IMC at about 2000 msl which I was just about to enter.  So I asked for immediate clarification.  Response was to disregard.  So that worked out fine.

Looking back we should've definitely unabled the routing and just said that we will just stay VFR. By time we loaded up the box we were getting handed off to PHX TRACON. The second I checked in, I was asking for our original routing or deviations. They said we'd have to make our request for center in 40miles! I was like, "ummmm why"? She said that she knew the restricted areas west were active but Center wanted us on this route. Okay. Check back on with ZAB on the southwest side of PHX and immediately asked for a 90degree right turn back to our original route or deviations west for build ups over Gila Bend VOR. Got an unable from them due to restricted areas. My blood is boiling at this point because he calls out Moderate to Extreme precip over Gila Bend. "No sh$t, that's why I need to deviate or declare and emergency". After that, they asked about our original route we filed. He was like, "oh yeah, that's way better and would work perfect". You can imagine how two controllers discussions went for the remainder of the flight. When checking on with LA Center, it was like a breath of fresh air. Very cool and HELPFUL controllers. 
I attached a screen shot of the 90degree right turn to rejoin our original route!

 

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, whiskytango said:

I have also had controllers ask if I am IFR or VFR. Why wouldn't they have that information?

They do. But they make mistakes like other human beings.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, gmonnig said:

Looking back we should've definitely unabled the routing and just said that we will just stay VFR.

SoCal TRACON did an online zoom a while back that I attended that was very useful.   Since they're some of the busiest airspace on the planet (which spills into the rest of the southwest, including Phoenix), they definitely have preferences, and they made it very clear that their preference is that GA traffic be VFR on flight-following.    They want to be talking to you, but they want you VFR for more flexibility in separation.    My take-away was that if you have the option anywhere near SoCal, be VFR, preferrably on flight-following.

[Will.iam]

Here is a pro tip for you IFR filers that i find works well for me including when I’m flying for an airline. 
when you get the dreaded ready to copy reroute phase, open up flight aware app and put in your callsign. At the bottom of the page you will see your filed route and 9 times out of ten it’s your new reroute flight plan. I showed this to a first officer the other day as we had a reroute from LAX to DFW and he really liked knowing what alphabet soup characters were coming beforehand so as the controller rattled them off it was very easy to check and verify instead of wondering what the next point was going to be. 
out of the dozens of times i have used this method, twice i have had a different route in flight aware that was different than our original but not what clearance delivery gave us. So it’s not guaranteed but great for when it works which is most of the time. 

[kortopates]

SoCal TRACON did an online zoom a while back that I attended that was very useful.   Since they're some of the busiest airspace on the planet (which spills into the rest of the southwest, including Phoenix), they definitely have preferences, and they made it very clear that their preference is that GA traffic be VFR on flight-following.    They want to be talking to you, but they want you VFR for more flexibility in separation.    My take-away was that if you have the option anywhere near SoCal, be VFR, preferrably on flight-following.

Cool, that was with Rod Reddeg. I organize these with the San Diego FSDO. But possible it was with an LA group.


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[Will.iam]

Revised flight plan route will be here circled in red. 

[Greg Ellis]

I understand that mistakes can be made and I am one of the most forgiving individuals.  But one time I was IFR on an IFR flight plan and had a controller contact me and say “Radar services terminated, squawk VFR for further flight following contact xxx.x”  I came back and said that I was on an IFR flight plan, not VFR.  He asked me to standby and then came back and told me to keep my current squawk code….  So funny things do happen even though we think that with all the high tech stuff we are immune.

[kortopates]

Here is a pro tip for you IFR filers that i find works well for me including when I’m flying for an airline. 
when you get the dreaded ready to copy reroute phase, open up flight aware app and put in your callsign. At the bottom of the page you will see your filed route and 9 times out of ten it’s your new reroute flight plan. I showed this to a first officer the other day as we had a reroute from LAX to DFW and he really liked knowing what alphabet soup characters were coming beforehand so as the controller rattled them off it was very easy to check and verify instead of wondering what the next point was going to be. 
out of the dozens of times i have used this method, twice i have had a different route in flight aware that was different than our original but not what clearance delivery gave us. So it’s not guaranteed but great for when it works which is most of the time. 

I’ve been doing that as well since Flightaware went live.
What i’ve learned is this always works except for 2 things: an assigned tower or TRACON departure procedure. Tower and TRACON changes often don’t get included till you call for clearance. Plus if your originating from outside your destination TRACON you are subject to the TRACON’s standardized arrival routing for lost comm purposes that you’ll never actually fly. But when your familiar enough to know these requirements in advance Flightaware has been entirely reliable for providing the routing.


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[PT20J]

Sometimes it's an altitude thing. 

I was once flying to Torrance, CA behind a Bonanza at the same altitude and about 20 miles ahead en route to Long Beach. Over Santa Barbara, the Bonanza got the dreaded, "I have an amendment to your clearance, advise when ready to copy." call. The reroute required him to avoid the LA Bravo by flying to Santa Catalina Island. He didn't want to go over that much water and asked for a different route but was told "unable at your altitude." He asked for another altitude and was told "unable at any IFR altitude." 

When I got to Santa Barbara, I got the amended clearance call with the same routing via Santa Catalina. I requested original routing, VFR on top at 9500, and got, "Approved as requested." Controllers cannot offer VFR on top, but the hint was pretty clear.

Skip

[bradp]

A few things I’ve learned flying in the New York area (n90) over the years: 

1. Expect multiple reroutes

2. Tell them unable.  Just be direct and quick on the radio.  They are accommodating.  I used to say no to them trying to put me on V44 all the time 50 miles off shore and they would alternatively route me V1 over JFK instead.  They even would keep me at 5k NE bound and amend *all* the departures on the Kennedy to 4 instead of 5.  They will work with you.  Doesn’t bother them generally.  I have previously had to activate an IFR plan encountering a snow squall under the EWR arrival corridor - I thought I’d be in hot water unable to maintain VFR/VMC- but no problem.  Vectors for thunderstorms that put me right in the middle of the EWR final stream… no problem.  They will absolutely work with you just work with them. They are incredibly talented at what they do.  Just be quick and compliant as long as it’s legal and safe (PIC authority). 
 

3.  A flight steam 210/510 or the equivalent Wi-Fi on the IFD are worth their weight in gold 

4. Those things will help you stay ahead of the plane. If you need more time, tell them authoritatively and they’ll help.  

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

Sometimes it's an altitude thing. 

I was once flying to Torrance, CA behind a Bonanza at the same altitude and about 20 miles ahead en route to Long Beach. Over Santa Barbara, the Bonanza got the dreaded, "I have an amendment to your clearance, advise when ready to copy." call. The reroute required him to avoid the LA Bravo by flying to Santa Catalina Island. He didn't want to go over that much water and asked for a different route but was told "unable at your altitude." He asked for another altitude and was told "unable at any IFR altitude." 

When I got to Santa Barbara, I got the amended clearance call with the same routing via Santa Catalina. I requested original routing, VFR on top at 9500, and got, "Approved as requested." Controllers cannot offer VFR on top, but the hint was pretty clear.

Skip

Indeed, coming from the SBA/OXY/CMA area heading south at PQ speeds IFR you either have to go low at 5-9K (depending on destination) out east to V186 and then south, or as high as you want (but at least 7K) out to Santa Catalina - they are only two routes from there, inland or Catalina. But often there is only one because virtually every altitude is in use in the SOCAL airspace. As another example if I want to go to Mammoth from San Diego IFR at 16K, I have to work with them to get above their SOCAL-Center transition altitude of 14K before I get as far north as SLI, or I will be restricted to 6K all the way till north of the SOCAL bravo. They can't tolerate a piston plane climbing through the LA area airspace IFR even at 1K' FPM conflicting with departures out of several airports in the area.

I've done the Catalina route multiple times though but never less than 13K or 15K south.

Edited September 4, 2022 by kortopates

[smwash02]

7 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I understand that mistakes can be made and I am one of the most forgiving individuals.  But one time I was IFR on an IFR flight plan and had a controller contact me and say “Radar services terminated, squawk VFR for further flight following contact xxx.x”  I came back and said that I was on an IFR flight plan, not VFR.  He asked me to standby and then came back and told me to keep my current squawk code….  So funny things do happen even though we think that with all the high tech stuff we are immune.

Flying from NC to a feeder in Dallas it was hard IFR out of NC and then an overcast layer at 2-3k in the Dallas area, so I was on my IFR plan the whole flight. He hadn't descended me despite being 20 miles out so I figured something was up.

I asked him what the MVA was and he asked what kind of assistance I needed. I let him know I was trying for the visual instead of shooting the approach. He came back with "oh, which airport are you landing at?"

Stuff happens.

[A64Pilot]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:25 AM, whiskytango said:

I have also had controllers ask if I am IFR or VFR. Why wouldn't they have that information?

I think they are asking if your IMC or VMC, but they never use those terms for some reason. if your in VMC / VFR conditions often they want to get rid of you.

I used to always file IFR when traveling, felt safer, but every time I got into Central Fl the re-routes would start and it became pretty obvious that they had rather me declare VFR and I believe the re-routes may have been a way to get me to do that. It often worked, then I wouldn’t go IFR unless it was IMC, and it seemed when they knew you were IMC that the re-routes were a lot less prevalent. This was no autopilot and electronic charts so it could get hectic.