BK/TT CANCELLS ALL AEROCRUZE ORDERS WITH AC SPRUCE

[Utah20Gflyer]

Why don't we form a Mooney STC group and push through certification for the Trio auto pilot.   It couldn't possibly take longer than BK and it looks like it's a slightly better auto pilot.   I'm willing to contribute money and time, unfortunately I don't know much, but there have to be others that have the requisite knowledge. 

[tim417]

  On 8/27/2022 at 2:15 PM, donkaye said:

Without trying to be too argumentative, the GFC 500 plus G5 with the minimum 2 servos like the BK Aerocruz 100  would cost about $6,995 plus $2,500 plus installation.  All in probably $12K.  That's just the cost of a reseal and the plane value would increase by nearly the same value.  The increase in safety value: immeasurable.

I know you won't buy anything I have said, but let me relate a couple of things that won't change your minds, but are relevant.  A few years ago a student of mine called to discuss a house he wanted to buy, since I've been buying houses most of my life.  There was a 300K difference between what he was willing to pay and what the Seller wanted.   With 50 years of experience I suggested he pay the difference because, based on the past, the value would exceed that in the future.  In his case, not surprisingly, he took that advice.  He called recently to thank me because the house value where he lives has gone up about $2 million.  

To bring that analogy back to autopiliots, assuming the Aerocruz was available, what is the price difference between that unavailable AP and the GFC 500?  $5K?  Not to be too dramatic, but Is your life, comfort during long distant flying, and just "plane" fun worth the extra $5K?  

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@donkaye All solid points and I am in full agreement. Though if you know of a reputable Garmin dealer that will install a GFC500 for $12k in my aircraft with dual GI275 and GTN6xx GPS, even without pitch trim and yaw damper, I would jump on that!!

Tim

[ArtVandelay]

Until TT actually ships and it’s installed by reputable avionics shop, any estimate of the its final cost should be taken with a grain of salt.

[EricJ]

  On 8/27/2022 at 7:56 PM, ArtVandelay said:

Until TT actually ships and it’s installed by reputable avionics shop, any estimate of the its final cost should be taken with a grain of salt.

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For a Mooney, perhaps, but they've been installed in many other types of airplanes and have a reputation for easy installation.   Since they are, by my understanding, using pushrod servos for the Mooney installation, there's not much reason to believe the installation will be difficult in a Mooney.

[cliffy]

Here's a question-

Is the TT/BK A/P available right now for any experimental airplane or are they also back ordered?

Have there been any TT autopilots produced in the last 6 months for any application?

[EricJ]

  On 8/27/2022 at 9:05 PM, cliffy said:

Here's a question-

Is the TT/BK A/P available right now for any experimental airplane or are they also back ordered?

Have there been any TT autopilots produced in the last 6 months for any application?

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All of the Aerocruze or Xcruze selections that I tried (most of them) on AS show "No Stock", except for Mooney says "Special Order".    The only thing I can find that isn't "No Stock" or "Special Order" is the auto-trim module, which shows In Stock (and doesn't apply to the Mooney).

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/av/autopilot_bendix.html

That's not looking good.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 8/27/2022 at 2:03 PM, dominikos said:

feels like a perfect justification to bring manufacturing back to the US… I would imagine it costs less than $1,500 to manufacture $7 component.

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Sad to say, it was a Texas Instrument part.

[Hank]

  On 8/27/2022 at 6:00 PM, cliffy said:

The FAA can spout all they want about supporting safety but in the end they are letting people die because they have their head in the sand. 

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Their collective heads are indeed lodged deeply, but in another location . . . .

[donkaye]

  On 8/27/2022 at 7:27 PM, tim417 said:

@donkaye All solid points and I am in full agreement. Though if you know of a reputable Garmin dealer that will install a GFC500 for $12k in my aircraft with dual GI275 and GTN6xx GPS, even without pitch trim and yaw damper, I would jump on that!!

Tim

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Sorry, if you need everything, it's obviously not going to cost $12K.  But you'd need a GPS and attitude source even with the BK AP, unless you just want a wing leveler, which is what the original M20 model came with.

[MikeOH]

  On 8/27/2022 at 10:47 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Sad to say, it was a Texas Instrument part.

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Uh huh,...with wafer fab at TSMC

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 8/28/2022 at 1:48 AM, MikeOH said:

Uh huh,...with wafer fab at TSMC

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Not sure. It is a DC/DC converter. I delt with their engineering folks when designing a battery charger for Johnson and Johnson, but I don’t know where they manufacture them. They have a big presence in Tucson where they manufacture the old Burr Brown analog parts. We were bidding on building them a new laser trimming tool. So I got access to their fab there. But they just build bipolar analog parts. The DC/DC converters are modules and I have no idea where they assemble them.

[EricJ]

  On 8/28/2022 at 1:48 AM, MikeOH said:

Uh huh,...with wafer fab at TSMC

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TI is considered IDM more than fabless.   I don't know if they contract out any fab at all.

Meanwhile TSMC is building a very large fab here in Phoenix.

It's a global economy, anyway, there's no way around that.

 

[Hank]

  On 8/28/2022 at 1:05 AM, donkaye said:

Sorry, if you need everything, it's obviously not going to cost $12K.  But you'd need a GPS and attitude source even with the BK AP, unless you just want a wing leveler, which is what the original M20 model came with.

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My Brittain AccuFlight will follow my G430W, -OR- it will follow the #1 VOR head, whichever is selected. 

The AccuTrak follows the heading bug.

Or I can just use the PC and stay mostly wings level with a fairly steady heading. All use the same servos.

[MikeOH]

  On 8/28/2022 at 2:18 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

Not sure. It is a DC/DC converter. I delt with their engineering folks when designing a battery charger for Johnson and Johnson, but I don’t know where they manufacture them. They have a big presence in Tucson where they manufacture the old Burr Brown analog parts. We were bidding on building them a new laser trimming tool. So I got access to their fab there. But they just build bipolar analog parts. The DC/DC converters are modules and I have no idea where they assemble them.

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Ah, didn't realize the "part" was a module.  I was thinking an IC.  As you say, they could be assembled anywhere.

[MikeOH]

  On 8/28/2022 at 2:21 AM, EricJ said:

TI is considered IDM more than fabless.   I don't know if they contract out any fab at all.

Meanwhile TSMC is building a very large fab here in Phoenix.

It's a global economy, anyway, there's no way around that.

 

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I'd be shocked to find out TI didn't contract any fab work.  I suspect it is product line dependent.

Well, good for TSMC...maybe they are getting a bit worried about their country's continued sovereignty!

It's always been a global economy, we just used to lead it especially regarding semiconductor technology.

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 8/28/2022 at 3:12 AM, MikeOH said:

I'd be shocked to find out TI didn't contract any fab work.  I suspect it is product line dependent.

Well, good for TSMC...maybe they are getting a bit worried about their country's continued sovereignty!

It's always been a global economy, we just used to lead it especially regarding semiconductor technology.

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I flew over the new fab up by Lake Pleasant, I think that is the TSMC plant. OMG, it is huge! Between that and Intel Ocotillo, Maricopa County may have more fab capability than the rest of the world combined. 

[EricJ]

  On 8/28/2022 at 4:24 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

I flew over the new fab up by Lake Pleasant, I think that is the TSMC plant. OMG, it is huge! Between that and Intel Ocotillo, Maricopa County may have more fab capability than the rest of the world combined. 

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Yes, it is enormous.    I hear comments from people in local construction that concrete projects in the valley are essentially not possible until that gets done because it is consuming all of the local concrete production capability and supply.

And, yes, we're gonna be fab central in the US for a while, I think, as Intel is still building and I suspect this plant has expansion options built-in as well.   A friend that does optically-flat resurfacing and machining for the local fab industry will likely have these guys as a new customer as well.    He's pretty happy about it.

[tim417]

@donkaye All I need is the GFC500 and servos. I already have the WAAS GPS and dual GI275s with ADAHRS and GMU11. 

[donkaye]

  On 8/28/2022 at 11:27 AM, tim417 said:

@donkaye All I need is the GFC500 and servos. I already have the WAAS GPS and dual GI275s with ADAHRS and GMU11. 

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You're almost there.  While you could get by on the cheap with only 2 servos, I think you would be much happier with the pitch trim servo, too.  In that way you would not need to monitor the pitch and trim it yourself when the AP indicated to "trim up" or "trim down".

[PT20J]

The GFC 500 is a modular design, and it is pretty easy to add the pitch trim servo later, so you can try it without and add it later if you decide you need it. That said, I have flown a C-172 with a GFC 500 w/o pitch trim and I found that it always wants you to manually trim when you are busiest doing something more important.

Skip

[tim417]

  On 8/28/2022 at 2:14 PM, donkaye said:

You're almost there.  While you could get by on the cheap with only 2 servos, I think you would be much happier with the pitch trim servo, too.  In that way you would not need to monitor the pitch and trim it yourself when the AP indicated to "trim up" or "trim down".

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I am trying to see what the budget will allow. If indeed I can get from where I am now to GFC500 installed for $12k or so, that would be doable. But seems like shops are asking for a LOT more. 

[Ragsf15e]

  On 8/29/2022 at 3:01 PM, tim417 said:

I am trying to see what the budget will allow. If indeed I can get from where I am now to GFC500 installed for $12k or so, that would be doable. But seems like shops are asking for a LOT more. 

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Especially if you don’t have a realistic place in your panel for the controller, then cost will grow quickly.  TT had different form factors to work in different parts of the panel.

[tim417]

  On 8/29/2022 at 4:37 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Especially if you don’t have a realistic place in your panel for the controller, then cost will grow quickly.  TT had different form factors to work in different parts of the panel.

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Unfortunately, TrueTrak appears to be vaporware and I I am not confident in BK’s support now or in the future.