1992 M20J Panel Upgrade / Advice

[gevertex]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

 

These are the 10" display on my plane.

There's an engine strip on the left for the most important gauges during flight, and traffic and flight plan insets, and AP status on the top.  

 

If you touch anywhere on the engine strip, it switches the display into split mode, with full engine instrumentation and fuel.

You can use the knob at the bottom right to turn the RH side into any of the MFD pages (Cht = chart, Wpt = waypoint, ec)

 

Very cool. Thanks for the detailed description. 

[rbp]

14 minutes ago, gevertex said:

Agree, you can’t use the second screen as a pfd unless the 10” is out or you have a second LRU

You need to ask your installer if they can/will enable PFD mode in the 7" display on the right hand side. otherwise you'll only get MFD. 

in either case, with a yoke-mounted iPad, you won't really need the 7" display. 

[gevertex]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

You need to ask your installer if they can/will enable PFD mode in the 7" display on the right hand side. otherwise you'll only get MFD. 

in either case, with a yoke-mounted iPad, you won't really need the 7" display. 

The installer mentioned only using the 7" as engine monitor / map except in reversion mode where the 10” dies.   They said I wouldn’t get artificial horizon or air data on it unless I had a 10” display failure. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by gevertex

[KB4]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

The argument for this is that the buttons are easier to see..

Only a few buttons to memorize, verify everything on ur screen.  Horizontal Nav on left —Vertical Nav on right.

[gevertex]

I put together a few other examples of layouts.  I am assuming I can shift the radio stacks left in two of them.  Is this a bad assumption? I think I like the G5 Left one the best so far and standard stacks second best.  Any restrictions on where the gear toggle can go?

 

[PT20J]

You might want to talk to the shop about how much work it adds if you move the radio stacks. There would certainly be more fabrication. But sometimes the rails for the radio stack have to be rebuilt anyway if they've been drilled so many times that they are like swiss cheese. I find I never look at the G5 anyway so personally I don't think it really matters whether it is on the left or the right. Keep in mind that the interior panels overlap the instrument panel a bit on the left side -- at least on my airplane. The G5 bezel is thicker than the G3X bezel. There is a flush mount kit and with a little extra work it can be made so that G5 and G3X protrude the panel by the same amount which looks nice.

I noticed that many people (including me) kept the Mooney trim breaker/switch for the GFC 500. Having this switch handy made sense for the B-K autopilots because it was a quick way to disable the trim system in case of a runaway malfunction. However, the GFC 500 is different and the autopilot can still run the trim with the trim breaker off. The breaker only protects the wiring for the manual electric trim switches. So, if I were doing it again, I would just put a push/pull breaker on the CB panel and leave the switch off the main panel.

Skip

[rbp]

Why the 355 instead of a second GTN650? 

You cannot load the flight plan from ForeFlight into the GTN and expect that it will cross-fill to the GNC355. You will have to enter the flight plan into the 355.

and if you go to the FPL and select the info page for your destination, you cannot just press a button to load ATIS and GND into active and stdby on COM2, you will have tune 120.275 and 118.9 directly into the 355

the GTN will automatically do this

[gevertex]

20 minutes ago, rbp said:

Why the 355 instead of a second GTN650? 

You cannot load the flight plan from ForeFlight into the GTN and expect that it will cross-fill to the GNC355. You will have to enter the flight plan into the 355.

and if you go to the FPL and select the info page for your destination, you cannot just press a button to load ATIS and GND into active and stdby on COM2, you will have tune 120.275 and 118.9 directly into the 355

the GTN will automatically do this

It’s a GNX 375 GPS Navigator/ ADS-B Transponder. As I understand it, the GNX 375 will integrate tightly with the G3X allowing IFR flight plans to be loaded from ForeFlight and synced to the G3X.  Also understand you can set transponder code from g3x.  
Comms are

GTR20B remote comm

GNC255A Nav/Comm

I am told both are programmable from the G3X

 

I would prefer a 650XI,  but then I need to buy a separate transponder for around 5AMU. Makes the whole thing about 10AMU more overall. That’s a bit more than I am wanting to spend. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by gevertex

[PT20J]

18 minutes ago, gevertex said:

It’s a GNX 375 GPS Navigator/ ADS-B Transponder. As I understand it, the GNX 375 will integrate tightly with the G3X allowing IFR flight plans to be loaded from ForeFlight and synced to the G3X.  Also understand you can set transponder code from g3x.  
Comms are

GTR20B remote comm

GNC255A Nav/Comm

I am told both are programmable from the G3X

Be very careful about this. Many have been surprised to find that things they thought would work, or were told would work, do not in fact work. Not all the Garmin boxes play together well in all configurations. If someone makes a claim have them show you the Garmin documentation that supports it.

I think that the G3X will only accept a single external navigator as a flight plan source. So, in an installation with two GPS navigators, only one will allow transfer of flight plans through the G3X. What @rbp is suggesting is that if you have 2 GTNs, then one GTN will transfer flight plans with the G3X and the other will crossfill from the first. At least that's how I think it works.

Skip

[gevertex]

3 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Be very careful about this. Many have been surprised to find that things they thought would work, or were told would work, do not in fact work. Not all the Garmin boxes play together well in all configurations. If someone makes a claim have them show you the Garmin documentation that supports it.

I think that the G3X will only accept a single external navigator as a flight plan source. So, in an installation with two GPS navigators, only one will allow transfer of flight plans through the G3X. What @rbp is suggesting is that if you have 2 GTNs, then one GTN will transfer flight plans with the G3X and the other will crossfill from the first. At least that's how I think it works.

Skip

Agree there is lots of confusion out there. I only have one GPS navigator in my setup. The 7” screen is a second G3X. I will dig into the manual a bit, it’s good advice. I have however seen others report this does work with g3x and all of the parts I mentioned are recommended g3x parts.  Only limitation I know of is that you apparently can’t enter an IFR flight plan into the g3x touch directly. It must come from the ifr navigator which can take input from foreflight. 

[rbp]

15 minutes ago, PT20J said:

What @rbp is suggesting is that if you have 2 GTNs, then one GTN will transfer flight plans with the G3X and the other will crossfill from the first

yes, but i got tired of repeating myself 

and not just flight plans, but also frequencies associated with airports and navaids can be cross-filled between the GTN units, but not GNC.  I regret getting the GNC355 over the GTN650. And the 7" G3X is superfluous way over on the right 

after 25 hours fling with my panel, I think the GTN750/650 with the remote GNX txp and remote GMA audio panel is really the way to go over disparate NAV/COMs, the PMA, and a 7" vertical 3GX. Some people love the PMA (hi Skip!), but having the TXP and audio panel on the GTN750 is awesome, and save a huge amount of panel space.  

[rbp]

6 minutes ago, gevertex said:

Agree there is lots of confusion out there. I only have one GPS navigator in my setup. The 7” screen is a second G3X. I will dig into the manual a bit, it’s good advice. I have however seen others report this does work with g3x and all of the parts I mentioned are recommended g3x parts.  Only limitation I know of is that you apparently can’t enter an IFR flight plan into the g3x touch directly. It must come from the ifr navigator which can take input from foreflight. 

FF will feed the flight plan to the GTN, which will feed the G3X. 

[gevertex]

58 minutes ago, rbp said:

FF will feed the flight plan to the GTN, which will feed the G3X. 

Understood. Are you saying the same does not work when GNX 375 is in place of a GTN?

[gevertex]

Looks like I messed up some math.  the GTN setup + remote TXP does look roughly comparable in price to the GNX setup if I remove the 7" g3x from the install.  I am going to call the installer tomorrow and ask about going that direction.  Based upon the feedback here, it looks like the better route to go pending an updated quote from them.  I'll let you know what they say.

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, gevertex said:

Looks like I messed up some math.  the GTN setup + remote TXP does look roughly comparable in price to the GNX setup if I remove the 7" g3x from the install.  I am going to call the installer tomorrow and ask about going that direction.  Based upon the feedback here, it looks like the better route to go pending an updated quote from them.  I'll let you know what they say.

Because you are going to be spending a lot of money, I urge you to download all the manuals for the equipment you are considering and read them carefully. This is the only way to really understand the capabilities of each box. Once you think you understand it, then design an installation with the installer and make sure that all the capabilities you expect will be available in that configuration. When you start connecting all these boxes together, sometimes certain features become unavailable per the STC. Garmin only makes the STC documentation, including many installation manuals, available to dealers, and checking that documentation is the only way to be sure that you are getting what you think you are getting. 

One example is the GI 275 as a standby for the G3X. The GI 275 is a great instrument, but the G3X STC prohibits connecting it to the G3X CAN bus, so it has to have it's own separate magnetometer and OAT probe, doesn't communicate to the G3X or drive the autopilot and cannot be connected to a navigation source. So it gets dumbed down to just a standby attitude/heading indicator. You would not know that if you didn't have the installation manual.

Skip

[PT20J]

@rbp, I'm curious how you like the Garmin AoA? -- especially in all that turbulence you were flying around in. I didn't install it because most opinions seemed to be that it worked best with the glare shield-mounted indicator and I didn't want something else obstructing the already smallish windshield. But now I'm wondering if I should have gone ahead and done it.

Skip

[Aerodon]

22 hours ago, gevertex said:

I put together a few other examples of layouts.  I am assuming I can shift the radio stacks left in two of them.  Is this a bad assumption? I think I like the G5 Left one the best so far and standard stacks second best.  Any restrictions on where the gear toggle can go?

The 'standard' M20J/K panels were built in multiple pieces.  Ignition / Pilots side, radio stack 1 Radio stack 2 and circuit breaker.  Mooney used numerous CPC connectors so they are easily removed and replaced.  Later model Mooneys used a 2 piece (3/4 & 1/4) - this is the arrangement that I prefer because you can sort out all the circuit breakers first and install the panel later.

The M20J/K radio mounts are 'flimsy' to say the least, and after they have been drilled a few times, they have to be replaced.  I have used 'radiorax' several times - Mooney is not on the Radiorax  'AML' so you have to work with the installer to get them approved.  They sell a slimline version that will allow two full radio stacks in the existing space.   

If you have a new 3/4 panel made, it can pick up all the old mounting points on the airframe, and the Radiorax are a far more robust way of attaching the trays to the panel and airframe.

Here is  a 3/4 panel I made with 2 x G3X's.   You can't tell, but the radio stack moved about a 1/4" over.  You could move it further, but then you have to think of what the 'bump' in the panel and glareshiled will look like.  I have managed to find an older M20K glareshield without a bump, that will help clean up the 'look'.

The more you stay with the standard Mooney layout and construction, the easier it is to get it signed out.  I would not move the gear selector or gear override light very much.

I think it is hard to have 2 G3X's and two radio stacks - give some though to remote transponders, audio panels etc. - it can fit in one stack.

Aerodon

[PT20J]

19 hours ago, rbp said:

having the TXP and audio panel on the GTN750 is awesome, and save a huge amount of panel space.  

If the GTN fails, can you still control the transponder and audio panel from the G3X? I think it can be configured that way, but I'm not sure.

[rbp]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

If the GTN fails, can you still control the transponder and audio panel from the G3X? I think it can be configured that way, but I'm not sure.

good question

[rbp]

17 hours ago, PT20J said:

@rbp, I'm curious how you like the Garmin AoA? -- especially in all that turbulence you were flying around in. I didn't install it because most opinions seemed to be that it worked best with the glare shield-mounted indicator and I didn't want something else obstructing the already smallish windshield. But now I'm wondering if I should have gone ahead and done it.

Skip

it has been too bumpy to calibrate it on the days i've been flying, but I will report back 

 

[gevertex]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:16 PM, PT20J said:

Because you are going to be spending a lot of money, I urge you to download all the manuals for the equipment you are considering and read them carefully. This is the only way to really understand the capabilities of each box. Once you think you understand it, then design an installation with the installer and make sure that all the capabilities you expect will be available in that configuration. When you start connecting all these boxes together, sometimes certain features become unavailable per the STC. Garmin only makes the STC documentation, including many installation manuals, available to dealers, and checking that documentation is the only way to be sure that you are getting what you think you are getting. 

One example is the GI 275 as a standby for the G3X. The GI 275 is a great instrument, but the G3X STC prohibits connecting it to the G3X CAN bus, so it has to have it's own separate magnetometer and OAT probe, doesn't communicate to the G3X or drive the autopilot and cannot be connected to a navigation source. So it gets dumbed down to just a standby attitude/heading indicator. You would not know that if you didn't have the installation manual.

Skip

Hey Skip.  That is sage advice and I took it. Over the last day, I read all of the manuals for the parts I listed at the beginning of the thread.  While I could be missing something, I honestly didn't see anything missing I was counting on even with the GNX375.  Yes, I get that if I had 2x GPS navigators then I wouldn't be able to crossfill between the two, but I am only planning to have one and use the G3x touch GPS as a VFR only backup.  The only missing feature that I might like to have is VNAV on the GNX357, but VNAV is available for VFR when using the G3X as the GPS source. Changing the GPS source is just 2 taps on the G3X touch flight plan screen.

 

  Here is what I was able to confirm by reading the manuals + watching YouTube demonstrations of the functionality:

• With a little fuss flight plan info can be entered via G3X, Foreflight on an iPad, or directly into the GNX 375 and synced to all 3. IFR waypoints must originate from Foreflight (to the GNX 375) or be input directly into the GNX 375.  Looks like there is a work around for this in playing with the GPS source on the G3X, but not counting on it
• GNX 375 transponder is controllable from G3X display
• GFC500 will fly coupled LPV approaches including glideslope
• GTR 20B allows inout of frequencies via G3X
• GNC 255A allows input of frequencies via G3X
• GNC 255A show ILS guidance + VOR course deviation on G3X (just like on G5)
• GMA 345 can't be controlled by the G3X, but I want to keep it because I like having some buttons for dealing with audio quickly (such as one button clearance playback).  I wouldn't loose that if g3x died completely.
• GFC 500 couples to G3X for VFR VNAV, but not when using GNX 375 as GPS source
• After thinking about it a bit, I actually like the 7" in front of the copilot.  I fly with pilot friends relatively frequently and it would be helpful for them to be able to manage the flight plan, radios, TXP, etc.

What else am I missing / should I expect from spending this kind of money on a new panel?  Also, if anyone has direct contradictory experience, please let me know.  I am going only off what I could find in manuals / saw visually demonstrated on YouTube.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by gevertex

[gevertex]

12 hours ago, Aerodon said:

The 'standard' M20J/K panels were built in multiple pieces.  Ignition / Pilots side, radio stack 1 Radio stack 2 and circuit breaker.  Mooney used numerous CPC connectors so they are easily removed and replaced.  Later model Mooneys used a 2 piece (3/4 & 1/4) - this is the arrangement that I prefer because you can sort out all the circuit breakers first and install the panel later.

The M20J/K radio mounts are 'flimsy' to say the least, and after they have been drilled a few times, they have to be replaced.  I have used 'radiorax' several times - Mooney is not on the Radiorax  'AML' so you have to work with the installer to get them approved.  They sell a slimline version that will allow two full radio stacks in the existing space.   

If you have a new 3/4 panel made, it can pick up all the old mounting points on the airframe, and the Radiorax are a far more robust way of attaching the trays to the panel and airframe.

Here is  a 3/4 panel I made with 2 x G3X's.   You can't tell, but the radio stack moved about a 1/4" over.  You could move it further, but then you have to think of what the 'bump' in the panel and glareshiled will look like.  I have managed to find an older M20K glareshield without a bump, that will help clean up the 'look'.

The more you stay with the standard Mooney layout and construction, the easier it is to get it signed out.  I would not move the gear selector or gear override light very much.

I think it is hard to have 2 G3X's and two radio stacks - give some though to remote transponders, audio panels etc. - it can fit in one stack.

Aerodon

Nice, looks great! Excited to see it installed.

[McMooney]

check with the avionics shop about moving the radios, I found out the hard way(spent more money) avionics stcs can be pretty particular about where radios are located

[gevertex]

8 hours ago, gevertex said:

Hey Skip.  That is sage advice and I took it. Over the last day, I read all of the manuals for the parts I listed at the beginning of the thread.  While I could be missing something, I honestly didn't see anything missing I was counting on even with the GNX375.  Yes, I get that if I had 2x GPS navigators then I wouldn't be able to crossfill between the two, but I am only planning to have one and use the G3x touch GPS as a VFR only backup.  The only missing feature that I might like to have is VNAV on the GNX357, but VNAV is available for VFR when using the G3X as the GPS source. Changing the GPS source is just 2 taps on the G3X touch flight plan screen.

 

  Here is what I was able to confirm by reading the manuals + watching YouTube demonstrations of the functionality:

• With a little fuss flight plan info can be entered via G3X, Foreflight on an iPad, or directly into the GNX 375 and synced to all 3. IFR waypoints must originate from Foreflight (to the GNX 375) or be input directly into the GNX 375.  Looks like there is a work around for this in playing with the GPS source on the G3X, but not counting on it
• GNX 375 transponder is controllable from G3X display
• GFC500 will fly coupled LPV approaches including glideslope
• GTR 20B allows inout of frequencies via G3X
• GNC 255A allows input of frequencies via G3X
• GNC 255A show ILS guidance + VOR course deviation on G3X (just like on G5)
• GMA 345 can't be controlled by the G3X, but I want to keep it because I like having some buttons for dealing with audio quickly (such as one button clearance playback).  I wouldn't loose that if g3x died completely.
• GFC 500 couples to G3X for VFR VNAV, but not when using GNX 375 as GPS source
• After thinking about it a bit, I actually like the 7" in front of the copilot.  I fly with pilot friends relatively frequently and it would be helpful for them to be able to manage the flight plan, radios, TXP, etc.

What else am I missing / should I expect from spending this kind of money on a new panel?  Also, if anyone has direct contradictory experience, please let me know.  I am going only off what I could find in manuals / saw visually demonstrated on YouTube.

 

 

Continuing to read, I may actually prefer the remote audio panel especially if I have two G3X displays.  It looks a lot easier to change the configuration and select which audio sources belong to which groups (playing music to passengers only for instance) than memorizing button combinations on the GMA 345.

[KB4]

15 minutes ago, gevertex said:

It looks a lot easier to change the configuration and select which audio sources belong

Get the Telligence, believe available on 650 and 750.  PTT on right, say tune com1. Or Tune nearest or destination AWOS, tower, app, say distance from airport. . . list is expansive. 
 

Need at least 650 to get new features of GFC500, that will be released, such as glide advisor that came out awhile back. Hit button, plane turns you to nearest airport you CAN MAKE, while you go thru checklists to diagnose the issue.  
 

happy shopping.