Another rookie question

[Mcstealth]

The Darter on the field is not IFR certified. I asked Gulf Avionics what it would take to get the Dart certifiable. The lead tech said we have everything accept an outside temp Guage, and a heated pito  tube. Then he said something which made me pause. "If you were only training IFR, you probably won't need the tube heated". ???????

Is that a thing?

[Hank]

No, you'll want a heated pitot tube if your training will encounter actual IMC. Mine did, pitot heat ON. Same after training, too.

[skydvrboy]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

No, you'll want a heated pitot tube if your training will encounter actual IMC. Mine did, pitot heat ON. Same after training, too.

I’m not disagreeing with you, but there is no requirement to enter actual IMC during training. Thus the pitot heat wouldn’t be needed, though I’d argue doing some actual during training is a wise and valuable experience.

[PeteMc]

I agree with @skydvrboy on this.   You can do a LOT of training in that plane.

But I would keep searching for another plane on the field or someplace else that is fully IFR ready.  You REALLY DO want to go into IMC with your instructor if you can.  Especially with the spring coming up when you can get a lot of low clouds but it's not hot enough (even in TX) that you need to worry about convective activity. 

(Though my guess is that down there you ALWAYS are concerned about convective activity, even in the middle of the winter.)

[kortopates]

I’m not disagreeing with you, but there is no requirement to enter actual IMC during training. Thus the pitot heat wouldn’t be needed, though I’d argue doing some actual during training is a wise and valuable experience.

i agree with you about not requiring IMC training. After all, probably every instrument student that does all their training in AZ doesn’t get any.

But the equipment requirements for flying IFR begin with filing an IFR flight plan, not entering IMC, which is required part of the IFR training (such as the IFR Cross country).

But i don’t know where the heated pitot tube requirement is specified - don’t doubt it since I’ve never seen an IFR plane without one. Nor would i want to go IMC without it. But it’s not listed in 91.205 and frankly I’ve never gave it a thought till this discussion. interesting issue


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[GeeBee]

You might need to check the certification basis of the airplane. It was certified right at the time of the regulatory change over from the CAB to the FAA. Why does that matter?

If it was certified under the CAR regulations, all you need is the equipment specified in 91.205 for IFR and you are good to go. NOTE pitot heat is not required.

If it was certified under FAR 23 you are frozen under the TCDS and no amount of added instruments will change that fact without an STC. 

We run into this issue in the SuperCub community all the time. If you buy an original PA-18 it was certified under CAR 3. Add the instruments required for IFR in 91.205 and it is an IFR airplane.  Mine had an Aspen 1000 with a Garmin 420. Good to go. Yes I flew it IFR without pitot heat. Pitot heat is not required and on a warm day through overcasts etc. no problem.

However the CubCrafters Top Cub identical to the PA-18 but for a 180hp engine standard and a re-enforced wing. It is certified under FAR 23. Its TCDS limits it to "Day and Night VFR". No amount of equipment added to it will change that certification unless you get an STC.

Here was my PA-18 panel

[Mooney Dog]

10 hours ago, kortopates said:

probably every instrument student that does all their training in AZ doesn’t get any.

You should see all the popup clearances when there's a single cloud in the sky! 

[Mcstealth]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

You might need to check the certification basis of the airplane. It was certified right at the time of the regulatory change over from the CAB to the FAA. Why does that matter?

If it was certified under the CAR regulations, all you need is the equipment specified in 91.205 for IFR and you are good to go. NOTE pitot heat is not required.

If it was certified under FAR 23 you are frozen under the TCDS and no amount of added instruments will change that fact without an STC. 

We run into this issue in the SuperCub community all the time. If you buy an original PA-18 it was certified under CAR 3. Add the instruments required for IFR in 91.205 and it is an IFR airplane.  Mine had an Aspen 1000 with a Garmin 420. Good to go. Yes I flew it IFR without pitot heat. Pitot heat is not required and on a warm day through overcasts etc. no problem.

However the CubCrafters Top Cub identical to the PA-18 but for a 180hp engine standard and a re-enforced wing. It is certified under FAR 23. Its TCDS limits it to "Day and Night VFR". No amount of equipment added to it will change that certification unless you get an STC.

Here was my PA-18 panel

Hmmmmmm.  Thank you. I will check the Type Certificate? Correct? 

[GeeBee]

I finally found the TCDS. It is under Dynac which is a division of Christiansen, the makers of the Aviat Husky. It is a CAR 3 airplane. So just make sure you have the equipment required in 91.205 for IFR light unless............(see note 3 on the TCDS)

"The Aero Commander Model 100 aircraft prior to S/N 153 are approved for day VFR operations only. This restriction removed upon approved installation of Aero Commander Kit No. SBK 1007."

 

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/022d172bb06acd888525674400602d3e/$FILE/1a21.pdf

[Mcstealth]

56 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I finally found the TCDS. It is under Dynac which is a division of Christiansen, the makers of the Aviat Husky. It is a CAR 3 airplane. So just make sure you have the equipment required in 91.205 for IFR light unless............(see note 3 on the TCDS)

"The Aero Commander Model 100 aircraft prior to S/N 153 are approved for day VFR operations only. This restriction removed upon approved installation of Aero Commander Kit No. SBK 1007."

 

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/022d172bb06acd888525674400602d3e/$FILE/1a21.pdf

So I need to check the logs to make sure that Kit # SBK 1007 has been completed, and I see no mention of a heated pitotube, or a temperature Guage. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Mcstealth

[carusoam]

Good time to check a few things…

1) See what the POH has for an MEL (minimum equipment list, found in the limitations section)

2) Mooneys (M20R) require heated pitot for day/night IFR…. (With a note to check… when required by appropriate regulations)

3) plan if you want IMC to be part of your IR…

4) on the East Coast… the whole point of having the IR is because of the amount of IMC available… 

5) Entering IMC can be a bit unnerving the first few times….  Good to have a CFII there for guidance…  looks similar to flying at a concrete wall at cruise speed…

6) Hand Flying for hours in IMC… good proof that you can do it… for the days when you need to do it…

7) Flying in actual IMC can be very comfortable, compared to having sight limiting devices, getting in the way of seeing the instruments… or accidentally allowing vision outside the aircraft…

8) Popeye’s experience has got to be helpful for this…. Multitasking at lunch time has got to make hand flying in IMC look easy…   Staying ahead of the next thing to beep….
 

Note… David has Popeye’s experience… I only have McD’s experience…. 

Go MS!

-a-

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

So I need to check the logs to make sure that Kit # SBK 1007 has been completed, and I see no mention of a heated pitotube, or a temperature Guage. 

Only if it is S/N 152 or earlier.

Otherwise it is a standard CAR 3 airplane.