Decisions, decisions

[dylanac]

Last march I purchased a quasi-abandoned M20E. It was a photo plane that was being used at our airport, I knew a couple of the pilots that were flying it. After the company flying it went bankrupt, I managed to snag it for a cool $15k. The bones were solid but the interior was original and fairly rough, the engine had 2380 hours on a reman, and the avionics were not working great. As my current mission with the mooney is to get my instrument rating, I addressed the avionics issued and redid almost all of them (750, audio panel, GTR225, dual G5). Now that I'm almost done with the instrument rating and this poor IO-360 is around 2500hrs, I'm starting to plan for an engine overhaul. It was run a lot and very gently when it was a photo plane (400+hrs/year, cruising along at 22" at 8000' for 8 hours a day), but it did sit in a hangar for around a year not being flow. Iowa is generally nice to sitting engines though. I don't mind using lesser-known shops or one-man-shows as long as they do quality work. I was curious if anyone had any recommendations aside from the usual or knew of anyone more local that might doing overhauls. I'm currently located in central Iowa but will be moving to Oklahoma in two months. I know lycomings are known for bottom end wear and that concerns me given how far it is past TBO, but a factory reman should give me room to have the crank ground and oversize bearings put in, correct? Has anyone had an overhaul done on an A1A recently or received quotes? What am I looking for price-wise with R&R? Jewel is saying $3700 plus $13amu parts (avg), what has everyone's experience been with cost to R&R? Accessories? Are there any other shops in the area that are well known and reasonable? Realistically it's going to take me around a year to scrape up enough for an overhaul, I'm just curious if anyone has any opinions or tidbits they thought would be handy to share as this is all uncharted territory for me.

[Boilermonkey]

I've been waiting for a reman from the factory since August.   You might figure that into your timing.  If you need 12mo to get the cash, it'll be another 6-8months until you get things done and billed.

[EricJ]

Have you been having oil analysis done?    If the compressions are good, static power is good, and it climbs reasonably well there may be no reason to hurry if the oil analysis is also good.   I'd also go to the trouble to pop out the oil suction screen if it hasn't been for a while and see if there's anything in there.

[dylanac]

1 hour ago, Boilermonkey said:

I've been waiting for a reman from the factory since August.   You might figure that into your timing.  If you need 12mo to get the cash, it'll be another 6-8months until you get things done and billed.

That's great info, thanks. I'm not in a tremendous hurry to get it started. I'll be starting Air Force UPT in around 10 months so I'll probably have him do it then since I won't have much time to fly anyway. I'm hoping a straight overhaul doesn't take that long, although I know there is a long wait on cylidners.

32 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Have you been having oil analysis done?    If the compressions are good, static power is good, and it climbs reasonably well there may be no reason to hurry if the oil analysis is also good.   I'd also go to the trouble to pop out the oil suction screen if it hasn't been for a while and see if there's anything in there.

Yessir. I've purchased abandoned planes before so I try to stay on top of analysis. I change every 30 hours. Compressions are all in the 70s, with the exception of 3 that was at 65 but that was a cold test and right after it was sitting for a year. I imagine now, 130 hours later, it's good. I did do a leakdown check on the propeller oil circuit while chasing down governor issues. It was down to 6psi which is the bottom limit. I know it could be other things but given the history and hour total of this engine I'm thinking it's almost time. I'm going to keep operating it and just keep an eye out for bearing material in the oil analysis and filter. I would rather be proactive rather than reactive with regards to finances though, so I'm trying to start saving and plan for when the engine starts telling me it's time. What is this oil suction screen, are you referring to the one in the oil pickup in the sump?

Thanks for all the info guys.

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, dylanac said:

What is this oil suction screen, are you referring to the one in the oil pickup in the sump?

Yes, the tubular screen in the sump on the suction side of the pump.   It's kind of a bitch to get at, but if it's reasonably clean or just has carbon chunks or similar in it that's much better than if there are parts with serial numbers in there.   It's really just for catching big things before they get to the pump, but sometimes when an engine is getting ready to go there's stuff in there.

[dylanac]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

Yes, the tubular screen in the sump on the suction side of the pump.   It's kind of a bitch to get at, but if it's reasonably clean or just has carbon chunks or similar in it that's much better than if there are parts with serial numbers in there.   It's really just for catching big things before they get to the pump, but sometimes when an engine is getting ready to go there's stuff in there.

Do I need to drop the sump to get at that or is there an easier way? Unrelated, how do I get the map to put in my signature?

[EricJ]

Just now, dylanac said:

Do I need to drop the sump to get at that or is there an easier way?

No, there's just not a lot of space to work.   There are some vids on how to get at it on a J (which probably isn't too much different than an E) here:
 

 

[Skates97]

19 minutes ago, dylanac said:

Do I need to drop the sump to get at that or is there an easier way? Unrelated, how do I get the map to put in my signature?

https://visitedstatesmap.com/

Go with the small size.

[dylanac]

34 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

https://visitedstatesmap.com/

Go with the small size.

Thanks! Do we typically put all the states we've been to or just the ones our Moonies/planes have brought us to?

[Prior owner]

Best not to go with the lowest bidder for your overhaul…

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, dylanac said:

Thanks! Do we typically put all the states we've been to or just the ones our Moonies/planes have brought us to?

Personal preference. I click off any state that I have actually landed a plane in, for Hawaii it was a rented Cessna. I think that is what most people typically do.

[dylanac]

39 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said:

Best not to go with the lowest bidder for your overhaul…

Absolutely, I just want a general range right now and was curious if anyone had some good recommendations. I have no problem using smaller shops as long as they have a good reputation. To a certain extent I'm sure bigger places charge more for a name because they know owners view the name of your engine overhaul shop as a selling point. I plan on keeping this for quite some time so I don't really care about selling it. I'm sure it's history as a photo plane might be off-putting to some buyers. I'm just happy to save a plane from almost certainly being parted out.

[Jsno]

I would just go with an overhaul rather than a factory reman.  Here is from an article John Schwaner wrote about how factory new limits came about.  Very interesting.  Long story short, if it is overhauled per Lycoming Manual and S/B on required replacement parts it will last just as long as a factory new or remanufactured and save money.  Just be careful of the low ballers.  I disassembled mine with 1100 hrs due to sitting three years and found that the exhaust valved were reground.  You could shave with them!  Definitely a no-no.

Factory New Limits and other Nonsense Pure nonsense! I can give you an example of how one engine manufacturer's cylinder barrel new limit is the same as maximum service limit. What... new limit=service limit! But there is a story behind this so here goes... Many years ago one of the engine manufacturer's had a problem with excessive cylinder barrel wear on a high-performance airplane model. There was a meeting of the user group for that airplane and there the factory rep assured all of the owners that they would take care of the problem under warranty. They would boroscope the cylinders and any cylinders that had excessive barrel wear (no cross-hatch left i.e. bore polished) would be removed and re-honed. Fair enough, but some of the owners were concerned that they were going to get back cylinders that were not to new limits and close to being worn out. The factory rep assured them that "any cylinder not in new limits would be replaced with new". More than fair. So everyone's happy and the factory rep goes to my shop and says "John, we want you to do all of the cylinder work on this warranty problem." OK, I say, "but if the barrel is already worn out and I hone it, it will be larger. I can't hone it smaller so I know they won't be within factory new limits." John, the factory rep says, you don't understand. You are going to hone it to factory new at +5 oversize. But Mr. factory rep, you don't have a +5 oversize. We do now! So here is how this works:
Mininum new is 5.000 inches Maximum service limit is 5.005 Mininum new for 5 over is 5.005 Maximum service limit for 5 over is 5.010 So you see these cylinders were factory new but at +5 oversize, or were they service limit for standard size? Take your pick as they are both! Now it's not all that bad because maximum service limit is not a wear limit as such. It doesn't mean that the cylinder barrel will stop working at that size. It is a repair limit or the limit of size during repair in which the engine will perform satisfactory during its anticipated life. All things being equal we want it be as close to new size as possible but there is way too much emphasis by users on "new limits". Now that we're talking "new limits" or 'factory new limits" there is one more gotcha. We got into trouble above by not having a thorough understanding of new limit. Now we're in trouble because of imprecise thinking; marketeers in this industry take advantage of it (you). If you specify "Lycoming new limt" or "Continental new limit" we can all agree on what this limit is as it is published in their "Table of Limits". But when we say "factory new limits" then who's limits are these? You might incorrectly assume that it is Lycoming or Continental. There are shops that work to their own limits and to them "factory" refers to themselves.

[mike20papa]

What you need to understand is that these are very simple engines, they don't have chain driven multiple overhead cam shafts or Alpha Romeo style shim tappets etc.  Also, the internals (unless you send it to Lycoming)  all most likely end up at a FAA Cert. repair station (there's not but a handful) for inspection, overhaul, yellow tagging, etc.  This is where the real work is done and communication between you, the shop tearing the motor down & reassembling, need to have good communication.  To reassemble one of these engines is like about 4 hours of work (and that's with lots of coffee breaks),  Non of it is brain surgery but strict accordance to  "all available information" is required.   Nothing creative, just by the book meticulous work.   As high time as the motor is, brace yourself for the max amount of an overhaul.  Think all new stud assemblies (cyl.s, pistons, valves) If you want a "high end branded" shop to sign the log book, run the motor in a test cell, then be prepared to pay.  There is a shop in Colorado - Westair.com (Western Aircraft Services) they can get the job done and reasonable, but be prepared to pay crating, shipping, etc.   Crating a Lycoming is not an easy task.  Probably take as much time to build a crate, take to a freight depot than tear down the motor and reassemble.
Most A&P's (contrary to years past) just don't do "field OH's".    The never ending, hour after hour comes in removing the engine and reinstalling it.  Best of luck.   Here's a photo of my O-360A1D on the way to Trim-Aire in Mexia Tx

Edited February 8, 2022 by mike20papa
dd

[asaxet]

IMHO install an engine monitor,  (used works just as good as new)  cht, egt for each cyl, oil temp...   FF is a nice add if you can afford it...  

Read up on TBO and beyond @ Mikes, savy aviation  site....   another perspective.....

 

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

+1 engine monitor…

+1 Using Savvy methodology….

Look for the engine OHer that gets used a lot around here…

a combination of price and quality…

know that not all OHs are the same… be sure to compare apples to apples…

on high time engines expect the other things may be equally worn… alternator, starter, prop gov, mags…. They may or may not be included in the price…

Good luck with your next steps…

Best regards,

-a-

[dylanac]

14 hours ago, Jsno said:

I would just go with an overhaul rather than a factory reman.  Here is from an article John Schwaner wrote about how factory new limits came about.  Very interesting.  Long story short, if it is overhauled per Lycoming Manual and S/B on required replacement parts it will last just as long as a factory new or remanufactured and save money.  Just be careful of the low ballers.  I disassembled mine with 1100 hrs due to sitting three years and found that the exhaust valved were reground.  You could shave with them!  Definitely a no-no.

..

Great info there, thanks for the help.

11 hours ago, asaxet said:

IMHO install an engine monitor,  (used works just as good as new)  cht, egt for each cyl, oil temp...   FF is a nice add if you can afford it...  

Read up on TBO and beyond @ Mikes, savy aviation  site....   another perspective.....

I have a EI UBG-16 with FF and run LOP. I definitely agree with Mike Busch regarding TBO, otherwise I would have overhauled the engine right when I bought the plane instead of doing avionics. I just know that some day soon (still hopefully years away) I will need to do something. If I need to split the case to replace a worn bearing, I would rather just overhaul everything once I'm in there. I'm a buy once, cry once kinda guy. I think I'm leaning towards doing an overhaul vs a reman as most people here recommend it.

Thanks so much for the suggestions and info, all!

[Hank]

22 hours ago, dylanac said:

Thanks! Do we typically put all the states we've been to or just the ones our Moonies/planes have brought us to?

It's up to you. I keep several of these:

• states that I've lived in (8)
• states that I've visited / driven through (43)
• states that I've landed an airplane in (attached below--18, mostly my Mooney)

Why are your states colored in in gray, where the rest of ours are in color?

[dylanac]

39 minutes ago, Hank said:

It's up to you. I keep several of these:

• states that I've lived in (8)
• states that I've visited / driven through (43)
• states that I've landed an airplane in (attached below--18, mostly my Mooney)

Why are your states colored in in gray, where the rest of ours are in color?

Awesome! I'll stick with states I've landed in, that seems to fit the spirit the best. I just prefer one solid color. Maybe I should do blue like my Mooney . Did you land your Mooney in Alaska? If so, how is it? I've always wanted to fly there but I'm from the Midwest so it doesn't seem like something I should do without some experience out west first.

[Hank]

33 minutes ago, dylanac said:

Awesome! I'll stick with states I've landed in, that seems to fit the spirit the best. I just prefer one solid color. Maybe I should do blue like my Mooney . Did you land your Mooney in Alaska? If so, how is it? I've always wanted to fly there but I'm from the Midwest so it doesn't seem like something I should do without some experience out west first.

No, I rented a square tailed 172 in Juneau, with a local pilot, and flew down the channel, over a glacier and circled a grizzly. Really added to the vacation!

It's a different type of flying, all visual checkpoints with ATC, and the steep mountains go straight into the water.

[jaylw314]

20 hours ago, Jsno said:

I would just go with an overhaul rather than a factory reman.  Here is from an article John Schwaner wrote about how factory new limits came about.  Very interesting.  Long story short, if it is overhauled per Lycoming Manual and S/B on required replacement parts it will last just as long as a factory new or remanufactured and save money.  Just be careful of the low ballers.  I disassembled mine with 1100 hrs due to sitting three years and found that the exhaust valved were reground.  You could shave with them!  Definitely a no-no.

The practical (but admittedly small) benefits of rebuilt motor would be financial (zero time maybe slightly higher resale value) and perhaps lower chance of infant mortality from new parts (since at least some of the parts have stood the test of time).

It's hard to imagine any practical benefit from a factory overhaul over an overhaul from a reputable shop, though

@dylanac Thank you for keeping one more Mooney alive!

Edited February 8, 2022 by jaylw314