Rookie Far/Aim question.

[Pinecone]

To throw another wrinkle into the mix, only one pilot can log the cross country time. 

 

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

only one pilot can log the cross country time

Care to clarify why you think that  is true?

[kortopates]

17 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Care to clarify why you think that  is true?

Checkout the Gebhart 2009 FAA Legal interpretation. Its holds that only the pilot who is logging flight time for the entire flight may log cross-country time! 

There are 3 other legal interpretations on logging cross country flight time all from 2009,  where you'll learn for example, via the Hilliard interpretation if the pilot manipulating the controls under the hood and the safety pilot switch roles during the flight, neither pilot may log cross-country flight time, because neither pilot is logging flight time for the entire flight. The only escape clause from the above is to only switch roles at a point of landing, but you must be careful and mindful of the Van Zanen interpretation since you could do it in fashion that neither no one can log cross country time (e.g. logging multiple legs as one flight entry where none of the airports where more than 50 nm away from the original departure even though one more legs where 50 nm apart.) 

Lastly the Glenn interpretation gives more helpful examples building on the Gebhart interpretation.

These aren't exactly in the category of rookie AIM questions but in the "stump the CFI category" but really prove a good CFI has to be up on all the legal interpretations; including a recent FAA Memorandum (feb 2022) that rescinded the prior interpretations  for Glaser (2008) and Pratte (2012) for what counted as "three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems", and now allows PAR approaches to count! 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Checkout the Gebhart 2009 FAA Legal interpretation. Its holds that only the pilot who is logging flight time for the entire flight may log cross-country time! 

There are 3 other legal interpretations on logging cross country flight time all from 2009,  where you'll learn for example, via the Hilliard interpretation if the pilot manipulating the controls under the hood and the safety pilot switch roles during the flight, neither pilot may log cross-country flight time, because neither pilot is logging flight time for the entire flight. The only escape clause from the above is to only switch roles at a point of landing, but you must be careful and mindful of the Van Zanen interpretation since you could do it in fashion that neither no one can log cross country time (e.g. logging multiple legs as one flight entry where none of the airports where more than 50 nm away from the original departure even though one more legs where 50 nm apart.) 

Lastly the Glenn interpretation gives more helpful examples building on the Gebhart interpretation.

These aren't exactly in the category of rookie AIM questions but in the "stump the CFI category" but really prove a good CFI has to be up on all the legal interpretations; including a recent FAA Memorandum (feb 2022) that rescinded the prior interpretations  for Glaser (2008) and Pratte (2012) for what counted as "three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems", and now allows PAR approaches to count! 

So that pretty much means if a CFI has to take controls at any point, it no longer counts as a cross-country for flight experience?  Sheesh, that's kind of harsh!

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

So that pretty much means if a CFI has to take controls at any point, it no longer counts as a cross-country for flight experience?  Sheesh, that's kind of harsh!

These interpretations only address logging of time between 2 pilots where one is a safety pilot. None address getting instruction from a CFI. But I don't think a little help from an instructor prevents the student from logging the cross country time. That would be a harsh interpretation!

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

These interpretations only address logging of time between 2 pilots where one is a safety pilot. None address getting instruction from a CFI. But I don't think a little help from an instructor prevents the student from logging the cross country time. That would be a harsh interpretation!

Ah, I might be missing something.  Is there a rating that requires instrument or simulated instrument cross country time without an instructor?  Instrument rating doesn't require cross country experience to be simulated instrument, I thought?

Or are talking about gunners who are trying to knock out both the cross country requirement and simulated instrument time simultaneously?  That just kind of sounds like cheating

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

Checkout the Gebhart 2009 FAA Legal interpretation. Its holds that only the pilot who is logging flight time for the entire flight may log cross-country time! 

Interesting...   Thx

 

[1964-M20E]

If you need to build time and you are the safety pilot log the time. If you have plenty of time log if you want or don't log it.  Either way it doesn't make much of a difference .

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Ah, I might be missing something.  Is there a rating that requires instrument or simulated instrument cross country time without an instructor?  Instrument rating doesn't require cross country experience to be simulated instrument, I thought?

Or are talking about gunners who are trying to knock out both the cross country requirement and simulated instrument time simultaneously?  That just kind of sounds like cheating

Any fresh private pilot needs to build flight time for both the instrument and commercial ratings. They want both PIC time and x-country time - nobody cares about simulated time. But its the only way two pilots can both log PIC time on the same flight. Donning a hood makes both required crew members. And when the two pilots agree that the safety pilot will also be the legal PIC then they both get to log PIC time; at least during the portion of the flight the sole manipulator of the controls is wearing a hood. Its common practice at pilot schools for pilots to team up like this to build PIC time and of course nobody needs an instrument rating to put a hood on, just a qualified safety pilot with a medical.

Edited September 8, 2022 by kortopates

[carusoam]

When discussing FARs… I like to invite @midlifeflyer….

He will probably enjoy the minute detail found here…

FARs by the year….  

Best regards,

-a-

[AIREMATT]

11 hours ago, kortopates said:

e.g. logging multiple legs as one flight entry where none of the airports where more than 50 nm away from the original departure even though one more legs where 50 nm apart.) 

Has that changed over the years?
X-C used to be any flight where you landed at another airport. The 50nm distance only applies to X-C time required for a specific rating and for those airports to be at least 50nm from departure. I have thousands of hours and an ATP. If I fly 13 miles to a nearby airport for gas is that not a X-C flight anymore? If I’m a private pilot who isn’t logging lots of time towards any additional ratings is the same flight no longer X-C?

[midlifeflyer]

On 9/7/2022 at 11:37 PM, AIREMATT said:

Has that changed over the years?
X-C used to be any flight where you landed at another airport. The 50nm distance only applies to X-C time required for a specific rating and for those airports to be at least 50nm from departure. I have thousands of hours and an ATP. If I fly 13 miles to a nearby airport for gas is that not a X-C flight anymore? If I’m a private pilot who isn’t logging lots of time towards any additional ratings is the same flight no longer X-C?

It has not changed much. What is countable as cross country time depends on what you are using it for. So 61.1 contains multiple definitions of cross country. Your basic fly to and land at another airport any distance away is a cross country but the only FAA thing I'm aware it counts toward is Part 135 minimums. For other purpose, other requirements. They are all listed pretty clearly in 61.1 except for the "special" cross countries such as they private and commercial "long" solo cross countries which are listed in the requirements for that certificate or rating.

Edited September 9, 2022 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

When discussing FARs… I like to invite @midlifeflyer….

He will probably enjoy the minute detail found here…

-a-

I answer them and I understand the confusion in some, but I don't "enjoy" the minutiae as much as one might think. Most logging questions have had clear answers for decades. The cross country on a shared flight ones are relatively new - only 13 years.

[carusoam]

Mark,

You have skills that few others have!   

Thanks for sharing them.

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Mark,

You have skills that few others have!   

Thanks for sharing them.

Best regards,

-a-

More like an occupational disability  

[Mcstealth]

On 9/8/2022 at 6:47 PM, midlifeflyer said:

I answer them and I understand the confusion in some, but I don't "enjoy" the minutiae as much as one might think. Most logging questions have had clear answers for decades. The cross country on a shared flight ones are relatively new - only 13 years.

Everyone loves the minutiae. It's a thing!...........not.

[T. Peterson]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:29 AM, Mcstealth said:

Everyone loves the minutiae. It's a thing!...........not.

Anything that generates this much smoke will most likely camouflage your log book from prying eyes! Log what you want and don’t sweat the small stuff!

[T. Peterson]

13 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Anything that generates this much smoke will most likely camouflage your log book from prying eyes! Log what you want and don’t sweat the small stuff!

I think I need to clarify that I would never encourage anyone to knowingly do something wrong, but when there is this much disagreement even among the MS smart guys there is no need to beat your head against the wall. Log what you want until the Feds who are paid to get this right put out something the average guy can clearly understand.