Cowling mods for ease of access

[NM Mooney]

1 hour ago, hammdo said:

What I've UV smoked looks like (from my

 

Wait, so is the front different from the sides?  Or is the front just newer?  I see the price pops up a bit for the smoke with UV, but it's gotta be worth it. 

[hammdo]

Just now, NM Mooney said:

Wait, so is the front different from the sides?  Or is the front just newer?  I see the price pops up a bit for the smoke with UV, but it's gotta be worth it. 

Front was new -- I planned on doing the sides later but, she had an off field landing right after these were taken.  The pic was to show the difference between the Smoked version and the 'Green' factory version.

It will make a big difference if you get the UV SC Smoked/Gray versions.  Mine was 2 piece but I do believe they have 1 piece if you decide to upgrade.  If you do the 201 mod, you can decide then what type of windshield you'd want.

I got to enjoy the new windshields for 20 minutes before she gave up the ghost.

-Don

[NM Mooney]

5 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Front was new -- I planned on doing the sides later but, she had an off field landing right after these were taken.  The pic was to show the difference between the Smoked version and the 'Green' factory version.

It will make a big difference if you get the UV SC Smoked/Gray versions.  Mine was 2 piece but I do believe they have 1 piece if you decide to upgrade.  If you do the 201 mod, you can decide then what type of windshield you'd want.

I got to enjoy the new windshields for 20 minutes before she gave up the ghost.

-Don

Oh, my, I'm so sorry to hear that--but you're evidently okay, and that's the main thing.  There's a limited number of these planes but only one you. 

Cool, thanks for the input.  Yes, I was clicking on the next few newer models on the website Art Vandelay linked to with one-piece front screens and they list 'my' plane as compatible.  But am I right that I'd have to add a vertical strut inside for rigidity, or is that center piece solely to hold the halves of the earlier style together...?  Pardon my ignorance but I'm not yet very familiar with these planes and couldn't see a darned thing through that yellowed front screen on this bird. 

--Joel

[Guest]

From a western supplier.

http://store.ceebaileys.com/category-s/447.htm

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

You don’t need an a&p ticket to work on your plane. Just need a friendly a&p to provide the required supervision. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You don’t need an a&p ticket to work on your plane. Just need a friendly a&p to provide the required supervision. 

Supervise and sign the log books.

Clarence

[Hank]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You don’t need an a&p ticket to work on your plane. Just need a friendly a&p to provide the required supervision. 

Sure does make it easier. There are no A&Ps at my home field any more, of any persuasion. 

[M20F-1968]

22 hours ago, NM Mooney said:

I am new to this forum, and am in the process of buying a 1963 M20C as a restoration project.  It was so cheap that I'm almost embarrassed for the PO, but he's ready to let go of the plane, and the airframe looks solid with zero rust or visible corrosion, paint is decent (windscreen needs replacement, and I'll want to upgrade to a frameless version... anyone got a line on the parts?   

I'm headed out to do a compression check (prop turns freely with nice resistance on compression strokes), pull cockpit trim panels to check roll cage for corrosion (not bloody likely for a NM plane), scrutinize tanks, jack it up and test the retracting mechanism, etc., before finalizing the deal, so seems worth it via a labor/investment calculation.  But ultimately, I'm one of those nuts who gets nearly as much out of tinkering as operating so this really isn't about finding the best deal. 

I will be simultaneously taking an A&P certification course, so I can do my own work and inspections as I go.  The total cost of the FAA approved course at the local community college is $1,300 so that will pay for itself fairly quickly.  Of course, when I pass the FAA exam, I'll be able to do inspections to pay for gas and hanger space, so seems like a nice way to spend the next couple of decades...   

Anyway, I am eager to pore over the threads on this forum and am sure I'll have many follow-up questions, but would greatly appreciate responses to my initial questions:

• has anyone successfully designed mods to the engine cowling, to ease R&R of the side and top panels--i.e., quick release latches similar to the Piper, et al.  Same question re: lower cowling.  I have some ideas (I engineer and sell CNC parts for British sports cars), but no need to reinvent the wheel if someone has already accomplished this, and (ideally) posted a DIY guide online somewhere;
• Would FAA approval of such a mod merely be a matter of the A&P inspecting and approving it?  Or would the process be more involved, and agency-wide versus individual A&P discretion?  I'm not familiar enough with the CFRs to know the answer;
• what about the best remote filter solution?  Has anyone fitted the Airwolf option?  
• cooling re #4 cylinder.  Has anyone experimented with adding an NACA duct or some other method to boost cooling of what I understand is typically the hottest-running cylinder?  Am I wrong about this being an issue?
• are there any other maintenance bears (I've read about several of the less-fun tasks unique to the cramped engine bay between the engine and firewall and underneath the sump) that people would put on their short list for good mods, since I'll be pulling the engine and basically going through everything, so I don't have to do stuff twice? 

Thank you for your help.

Take a look at my album and pictures of my bird.   I started with the 1968 F model the satin hanger and pieces.   I set out to make it a modern airplane in.   The available  options for cowling  modification are just a few.   In my case I  used a Mooney OEM J model  cowling.  Shadrach On this form has a newly designed STC calendar which is a full cowling and installs much like the J model.   It would be a choice as well.   There are no modifications  which split the top counseling down the middle with the piano hinge like the Pipers or Bonanza.   That would be a stretch,  and would require prior engineering data in the DER.   There is no such prior engineering data on the Mooney.   Even changing  the cowling to a J model cowling  would require a DER  and prior approval data.  That data does exist  and I can help with that should you choose to go that route.  One  needs to give consideration to how much time it takes to take off and put on the  entire cowling.  The J model cowling  can be taken on or  off  in about 10 minutes.  The C model cowling would be 45 minutes or more.  

 if I were replacing windshield,  I would go to a full J model  style windshield with 1/4 " acrylic.   Once you're at that point it is a no brainer  to put on  a J model style cowling.  

 I would not use an arrow if remote filter as it just add two more hoses to leak.   The C model  is not that busy under the cowling  and servicing the original filter is not that bad.  I would change to a  screw-on oil filter if you still have the screen.  

A great option  is a turbo normalizer but these  are hard to find, rare,  and likely not a possibility.

I  I do not know if it's possible but it will be nice if the right hand foot well could be made to be held on with threaded fasteners since the  filter screen in the engine is in that location and barely,  if not impossible,  to check.   I also don't know whether a modification of the firewall such as I said would pass DER's criteria.   Presumably you could use  high temp fasteners and find something that could work,  but that may be an impossible task as well without preapproved data.

 As for cooling,  get rid of the old doghouse if you have it.   Make a conventional  engine baffling and make sure everything seals as tight as you can possibly get it.  If you do that  with a cowling change, is suspect cooling should not be an issue.

John Breda

[NM Mooney]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Sure does make it easier. There are no A&Ps at my home field any more, of any persuasion. 

Hank - I think you've laid out a plan for my new career--or at least a way to pay for trips and legitimately write them off as business expenses.  Once I get the certificate, I'll boot up a new LLC and figure out a nifty logo for the mobile A&P business. 

Everyone - how about some help with a catchy name?  It needs to simultaneously communicate what the biz does and the fact that it's mobile.  Here is a couple of clunky first tries: 

"MOBILE A&P" or "INTERSTATE A&P" - logo shows a guy leaning out of a stylized Mooney's window (maybe with old school flying cap and scarf) holding a spanner

Query: with full tanks and just me on board, could a decent tool kit provide a way to balance the aircraft, if distributed properly? 

Another query: anyone know of a good custom auto paint shop that could do the logo?  Yet another opportunity to write off a flight as a legitimate business expense.  Heck, come to think of it, if I start the LLC before the purchase, the aircraft itself and all of the work are legitimate write-offs...

Edited December 4, 2021 by NM Mooney

[Hank]

Hmmmm . . . A name . . . There's always PropNuts, but that doesn't imply traveling service. Stay away from anything like AirHeads. Check your area mobile dog groomers and car detailed to see how they imply mobility in their names.

[NM Mooney]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

From a western supplier.

http://store.ceebaileys.com/category-s/447.htm

Clarence

Thanks for this, Clarence. 

[NM Mooney]

31 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

Take a look at my album and pictures of my bird.   I started with the 1968 F model the satin hanger and pieces.   I set out to make it a modern airplane in.   The available  options for cowling  modification are just a few.   In my case I  used a Mooney OEM J model  cowling.  Shadrach On this form has a newly designed STC calendar which is a full cowling and installs much like the J model.   It would be a choice as well.   There are no modifications  which split the top counseling down the middle with the piano hinge like the Pipers or Bonanza.   That would be a stretch,  and would require prior engineering data in the DER.   There is no such prior engineering data on the Mooney.   Even changing  the cowling to a J model cowling  would require a DER  and prior approval data.  That data does exist  and I can help with that should you choose to go that route.  One  needs to give consideration to how much time it takes to take off and put on the  entire cowling.  The J model cowling  can be taken on or  off  in about 10 minutes.  The C model cowling would be 45 minutes or more.  

 if I were replacing windshield,  I would go to a full J model  style windshield with 1/4 " acrylic.   Once you're at that point it is a no brainer  to put on  a J model style cowling.  

 I would not use an arrow if remote filter as it just add two more hoses to leak.   The C model  is not that busy under the cowling  and servicing the original filter is not that bad.  I would change to a  screw-on oil filter if you still have the screen.  

A great option  is a turbo normalizer but these  are hard to find, rare,  and likely not a possibility.

I  I do not know if it's possible but it will be nice if the right hand foot well could be made to be held on with threaded fasteners since the  filter screen in the engine is in that location and barely,  if not impossible,  to check.   I also don't know whether a modification of the firewall such as I said would pass DER's criteria.   Presumably you could use  high temp fasteners and find something that could work,  but that may be an impossible task as well without preapproved data.

 As for cooling,  get rid of the old doghouse if you have it.   Make a conventional  engine baffling and make sure everything seals as tight as you can possibly get it.  If you do that  with a cowling change, is suspect cooling should not be an issue.

John Breda

John, 

This is really helpful information, thank you.  I will take you up on your generous offer re: the cowling mods and getting DER approval.  Ten minutes vs. 45 is a big deal to me, as I'm the kind of person who enjoys being in an engine bay frequently.  I agree that the obvious time to do this work is from the git-go, and in conjunction with the windshield upgrade.  In fact, aside from mounting new tires so I can roll the thing around, the combo of new windows and cowling access mods might well be one of the first things I want to take on. 

I am eager to see why a hinged setup isn't viable, but if you can get your cowling pieces off in 10 minutes, it may not be worth the trouble of designing a replicable solution.  Could you perhaps send me a PM with the cost of the DER for upgrading to the J model cowling, so I have a sense of what that route would cost me?

I need to get familiar with the change to a spin-on filter setup; no way I want to be servicing a screen type if it's a straightforward change to a spin-on--and of course I haven't yet been inside the engine bay to see whether the owner has already done that mod.  But indeed Hank's powerpoint on no-drip oil changes with his spin-on didn't look too terrible.

I need to look closer at your albums, as I didn't see close-ups of the details of your cowling conversion at first glance. 

Joel

[NM Mooney]

21 minutes ago, Hank said:

Hmmmm . . . A name . . . There's always PropNuts, but that doesn't imply traveling service. Stay away from anything like AirHeads. Check your area mobile dog groomers and car detailed to see how they imply mobility in their names.

Yeah, really... "AirHeads" doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

The guy who saved the headliner in my station wagon from the ravages of a freak-out by the wife's Weimaraner simply calls his outfit 'Extreme Mobile Detail."  That's why my first stab was "Mobile A&P." 

You know, the more I say it aloud, the more I like Interstate A&P.  Since it's the cost of a cheeseburger to buy the URL, and a Google search indicates nobody has thought of this name, I just bought it.  So, "Interstate A&P" it is!   I will build the website in my 'spare time' (easy-peasy with Squarespace).

Now, I just need a good logo.  But even a non-cutesy, buttoned-down text version wouldn't look bad on the tail, maybe enclosed in a shaded outline of the U.S.? 

INTERSTATE A&P

www.interstateap.com

[Sabremech]

16 minutes ago, NM Mooney said:

Yeah, really... "AirHeads" doesn't exactly inspire confidence...

The guy who saved the headliner in my station wagon from the ravages of a freak-out by the wife's Weimaraner simply calls his outfit 'Extreme Mobile Detail."  That's why my first stab was "Mobile A&P." 

You know, the more I say it aloud, the more I like Interstate A&P.  Since it's the cost of a cheeseburger to buy the URL, and a Google search indicates nobody has thought of this name, I just bought it.  So, "Interstate A&P" it is!   I will build the website in my 'spare time' (easy-peasy with Squarespace).

Now, I just need a good logo.  But even a non-cutesy, buttoned-down text version wouldn't look bad on the tail, maybe enclosed in a shaded outline of the U.S.? 

INTERSTATE A&P

www.interstateap.com

Just a word of advice on the mobile mechanic thoughts. Many airports have ordnance’s that require you to pay a certain percentage of your invoice if there’s a maintenance shop on the field. It’s not necessarily to dissuade someone from doing mobile maint but to even out the playing field when that shop has a large investment on the airport. Depending on the airport it can become an issue you don’t want to deal with. 
David

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sabremech

[hammdo]

On that front, Grayson Avionics ,on our airport, has a mobile AP/IA that will come to the field. The AP has a working agreement with Grayson so that may be an alternative approach. 
 

The other Maintenance shop on the field comes out as needed.

Best to ck with the airport for sure.

-Don

[NM Mooney]

David and Don,

I'm sure you're right about those considerations.  Indeed, one of my friends has long been in charge of the aviation section of the City Attorney's office here in ABQ, so I'll ask him about whether that's governed by ordinance at City facilities like Double Eagle.  There are, incidentally, a few other small plane airstrips outside the City's jurisdiction and outside Bernalillo County, too (and I think numerous fields throughout NM), so it may be more restrictive at some versus others. 

All of that said, and assuming I'd have to pay the airport(s) a cut, all one needs for tax purposes is a paying gig and all related expenses become legit deductions.  So, the fact that the trips are fun and would allow me to meet other Mooney owners doesn't impact the legitimacy of related expense deductions under the IRS code. 

More specifically, I need to talk to my CPA but I'm fairly sure that if I set up the LLC and business bank accounts ahead of the aircraft purchase, the plane would be a legit deduction--together with refurbishments and maintenance to keep it airworthy.   I researched sham LLCs a while back (when representing a partner in a local auto dealership), and I think the law for deductions is merely that they be legitimately related to the business's activities; the government doesn't decide whether they reflect wise use of the company's funds. 

So: the booby prize would be that my A&P license pays for itself by allowing me to save on labor and sign off on the repairs to the aircraft as I work toward making it airworthy, and Interstate A&P LLC gives me a fun way to earn some income while taking fun trips to help folks with maintenance on their planes.  Not a terrible way to spend the next few years of my life...

Joel

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Just a word of advice on the mobile mechanic thoughts. Many airports have ordnance’s that require you to pay a certain percentage of your invoice if there’s a maintenance shop on the field. It’s not necessarily to dissuade someone from doing mobile maint but to even out the playing field when that shop has a large investment on the airport. Depending on the airport it can become an issue you don’t want to deal with. 
David

Locally the only airport I know that wants a cut of revenue is Scottsdale, but essentially all the local fields require an A&P practicing publically on the field to a) register with the airport, b) include the airport as a named insured on at least a $1M insurance policy.   At my home field the ultimate out-of-pocket cost for an A&P is $4500-$5000 per year just to meet the registration/insurance requirements.   You have to fix quite a few airplanes just to pay for the insurance, so it keeps part-timers or retirees (e.g., me), from taking business from the people trying to work full-time.  It also is a force to the point that many A&Ps in metropolitan areas with similar airport policies are not mobile because they only meet the requirements for one particular airport.

That said, there's an awful lot of work gets done outside of that particular system, and there are a few guys that will go wherever.   Risk tolerance seems to be a key factor.

I had an engine failure and wound up AOG at a field about 50 miles from the home drome.   Of course the first thing I did was call my IA and see if he could come out and help.   Nope, have to talk to whoever is the guy at that field.   Fortunately the guy at that field was top-notch and did me solid, but that was my first experience with the non-mobility issue.

 

[NM Mooney]

37 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Locally the only airport I know that wants a cut of revenue is Scottsdale, but essentially all the local fields require an A&P practicing publically on the field to a) register with the airport, b) include the airport as a named insured on at least a $1M insurance policy.   At my home field the ultimate out-of-pocket cost for an A&P is $4500-$5000 per year just to meet the registration/insurance requirements.   You have to fix quite a few airplanes just to pay for the insurance, so it keeps part-timers or retirees (e.g., me), from taking business from the people trying to work full-time.  It also is a force to the point that many A&Ps in metropolitan areas with similar airport policies are not mobile because they only meet the requirements for one particular airport.

That said, there's an awful lot of work gets done outside of that particular system, and there are a few guys that will go wherever.   Risk tolerance seems to be a key factor.

I had an engine failure and wound up AOG at a field about 50 miles from the home drome.   Of course the first thing I did was call my IA and see if he could come out and help.   Nope, have to talk to whoever is the guy at that field.   Fortunately the guy at that field was top-notch and did me solid, but that was my first experience with the non-mobility issue.

 

Well, that's a bummer but as you suggest I'd have to work full time to make that up.  Most A&P's charge $80 per hour or so labor, which works out to $160K a year full time.  Adding $5K a year for an insurance policy is a no-brainer, and one always needs deductions with an LLC anyway.  So, even at half-time hours, the insurance deduction wouldn't be prohibitive.  The only wrinkle would be adding each airport as a named insured.  To my ex-adjuster's eye, a policy whose liability provisions encompassed the facility should do the trick--but, yeah, I've done lots of comparative negligence defense work and could anticipate the facility not wanting to be a co-defendant along with the A&P if somebody's propeller fell off. 

Returning to the starting point of this digression, the worst case booby prize is saving all that dough in labor to have an A&P perform or sign off on the work in restoring and maintaining my plane.  I could live with that--and the $13K threshold for the cert wouldn't take a ton of time to reach. 

[EricJ]

58 minutes ago, NM Mooney said:

Returning to the starting point of this digression, the worst case booby prize is saving all that dough in labor to have an A&P perform or sign off on the work in restoring and maintaining my plane.  I could live with that--and the $13K threshold for the cert wouldn't take a ton of time to reach. 

No doubt.   I think all told including books, tools, testing, etc., my A&P program was probably about $20k or so.   As an aircraft owner I've already made that up in spades just by reduced delays and aggravation by being able to do things myself.   The money doesn't really come into it from that perspective.    Totally worth it.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by EricJ

[NM Mooney]

13 minutes ago, EricJ said:

No doubt.   I think all told including books, tools, testing, etc., my A&P program was probably about $20k or so.   As an aircraft owner I've already made that up in spades just by reduced delays and aggravation by being able to do things myself.   The money doesn't really come into it from that perspective.    Totally worth it.

 

Eric, 

Very nice.  If we assume your program cost was about average (probably not too far off), then the FAA-approved CNM resident cost projection for 2021-22 of $13K is a real bargain.  But as you say, the freedom alone is hard to put a price on.  I mean, isn't that what owning one's own plane is about in some large measure? 

Also, I'd enjoy learning about the CFRs and various requirements needed to sign off on repair log entries.  I've already looked at the ADS-B out requirement which, glancing at the tail and wingtips of this plane, I doubt it is equipped to meet.  It'll be fun to begin planning which upgrades to do to the panel of the '63 M20C to achieve some balance of capability and vintage appearance.  I mean, while my knee-jerk predilection would be mostly VFR trips, it'd be neat to have IFR capability without a completely revamped panel. 

Ultimately, regardless of the mid- or long-term viability of the LLC, there's no reason not to organize one to gain legit deductions of the aircraft purchase and repairs to get it flightworthy, the A&P course, FAA exam and license fee.  It'll take me one weekend to fill out the NM LLC organization application, open a biz checking account, and build the website.  If nobody comes calling, at least I'll have gained significant deductions for stuff I need to do anyway--and unearned insurance premiums are 100% refundable, of course. 

Joel

[ziggy122]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:18 PM, hammdo said:

For the cowling, David @Sabremech has one in development and I have his original cowling design. My temps (even in Texas) have been great.

 

quit bragging Hammdo! ;-)

Edited December 4, 2021 by ziggy122

[ziggy122]

21 hours ago, NM Mooney said:

There's a wait list, both for hangers and covered tie-down space.  If this sale goes through, I need to get on the list, just didn't want to do that until I have the plane.  I think it's $245 hanger, $150 covered, and $35 tie down. 

However, the chief mechanic was very solicitous and said he's got a good 'out of sight, out of mind' tie down in the lee of one of the buildings to the north, and said he doesn't care if I work on it, so long as I don't spill, etc.  He also said if I need to pull the engine or anything, he'd let me pull it into one of the workshop bays.  I'd just put the engine in the truck, drive it home to my shop and put it on a stand.  Hmmm... guess I'd have to weld up a fixture to bolt in place of the missing engine to hang Olympic plates on, so I could move the plane back to the space without dragging the tail in the dirt. 

You don't have to put a deposit down to get on the waitlist at Eagle Eagle.  Probably worth it to get on the list now in case it does go through.

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, NM Mooney said:

Eric, 

Very nice.  If we assume your program cost was about average (probably not too far off), then the FAA-approved CNM resident cost projection for 2021-22 of $13K is a real bargain.  

Sounds like it.   The tuition there looks pretty miniscule, which is nice.   They don't include testing in the costs, though, which seems like an oversight.   Remember you have three tests to take, each of which has a fee for the written and a bigger fee for the DME for the practical, so six testing fees altogether.      

22 minutes ago, NM Mooney said:

Also, I'd enjoy learning about the CFRs and various requirements needed to sign off on repair log entries.  

You'll get all of that in school. 

[NM Mooney]

9 minutes ago, ziggy122 said:

You don't have to put a deposit down to get on the waitlist at Eagle Eagle.  Probably worth it to get on the list now in case it does go through.

Oh, that's neat.  In that case, I'll call them Monday morning.  Thanks!

[NM Mooney]

11 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Sounds like it.   The tuition there looks pretty miniscule, which is nice.   They don't include testing in the costs, though, which seems like an oversight.   Remember you have three tests to take, each of which has a fee for the written and a bigger fee for the DME for the practical, so six testing fees altogether.      

You'll get all of that in school. 

Okay, so let's round it up to $15K to be safe?  But in the end, even if I ended up with a net cost similar to yours, I agree that it'd be we'll worth it--and some of your cost was tools, which I never regret buying if I'm going to make repeated use of them. 

Well, of course that's right re: course content.  Looks like this will be an enjoyable experience all the way around.  I'm sitting on the recumbent reading the owner's manual, glancing up at the Sandias about to turn red, and loving life. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by NM Mooney