510 hour engine spike in metals. Opinion needed

[Joe Larussa]

Engine was overhauled 2016 and yesterdays oil sample came back with elevated metals and small shiny particles in the filter.

Shop says fly and resample in 30 hours. What would you do? My stomach is sick. 

Oil report.pdf

[A64Pilot]

Do the particles stick to a magnet? If so then I’d pull a cyl or two and look at the cam.

I have never seen an oil analysis catch an engine problem that wasn’t also showing up other ways, like the oil filter inspection.

I’ve also never seen anything except repeat sample later. no matter how bad it was.

Some are huge fans of oil analysis. I’m not, but then I only have 20 years experience with it with Army helicopter fleets of 18 to 24 aircraft each.

I think oil analysis is absolutely outstanding for determining the condition of the oil, but not as much for the condition of the engine.

If the particles are magnetic that means of course steel, and most likely place for that is cam, continuing to run it and pump more metal through the engine will cost more mooney to fix.

If they aren’t magnetic then maybe you could get lucky like a piston pin bushing or something.

This is of course just my opinion 

Edited November 11, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Joe Larussa]

2 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Do the particles stick to a magnet? If so then I’d pull a cyl or two and look at the cam.

I have never seen an oil analysis catch an engine problem that wasn’t also showing up other ways, like the oil filter inspection.

I’ve also never seen anything except repeat sample later. no matter how bad it was.

Would you do as recommended and fly and resample before starting to remove parts? Not going to hold you to it! Lol

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, Joe Larussa said:

Would you do as recommended and fly and resample before starting to remove parts? Not going to hold you to it! Lol

Not if they are steel particles, I can’t off the top of my head think of anything that could shed quite a bit of steel and not cause problems.

Of course I could be wrong

On edit check the screen in the accy gearbox housing too.

Edited November 11, 2021 by A64Pilot

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Joe Larussa said:

Engine was overhauled 2016 and yesterdays oil sample came back with elevated metals and small shiny particles in the filter.

Shop says fly and resample in 30 hours. What would you do? My stomach is sick. 

Oil report.pdf 298.03 kB · 5 downloads

There's a SB or SI from Lycoming (or Continental?) that recommends how to proceed with metal in the filter, and I can never remember or find the damned thing.  IIRC, their recommendations depend on the amount of metal collected, with thresholds like one teaspoon or half a teaspoon.  With less, they do recommend flying 20-30 hours and checking again, so that would be consistent with what your shop recommended, assuming they collected the metal and know about those guidelines.

Edit: I THINK this is the one I'm talking about?

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB480F Oil ServicingMetallic Solids Identification After Oil Servicing and Associated Corrective Action.pdf

Also they have a web page https://www.lycoming.com/content/suggestions-if-metal-found-screens-or-filter

So it would be worth asking your shop if they based they're recommendations on that SB.

Edited November 11, 2021 by jaylw314

[Greg Ellis]

This is not an answer to the OP's question, however, for those not familiar with what metals come from where in our engines, Blackstone-Labs has a nice PDF explaining this.

 

Understanding-Aircraft-combined.pdf

[mhrivnak]

It's easy to stick a borescope in each cylinder and look for problems there; did the shop do that? For example, scoring on the cylinder wall in line with the piston pin would be a big clue.

[N201MKTurbo]

The copper kind of says engine bearings. That’s what failed on my engine. The rear bearing saddle cracked and the bearing got messed up. 
 

Have you inspected the suction screen? If there any big chunks in there, it is tear down time. if not, I would keep flying it. If it is a cam or lifter, they fail slowly and not catastrophically .
 

 

[Joe Larussa]

So we are going start with the borescope and remove rocker covers.

[Matt Ward]

I use Blackstone and so take that into consideration, but, they provide universal averages for each metal that help provide context.  Al = 6 ppm, Fe = 21, and Copper = 19.  It looks like you've got only 27 hours on the plane in a year which suggests it's been sitting a good bit.   Like others said, the key is the filter.  You need to know if it's ferrous or not and how much it is.  Google Mike Busch's articles & videos on this too.

Back to your original question I found ferrous metal, flew 25 hours, found more, flew 15 more, found more aluminum than steel.  Pulled a cylinder and looked at the cam with the scope and found spalling.

[Joe Larussa]

2 minutes ago, Matt Ward said:

I use Blackstone and so take that into consideration, but, they provide universal averages for each metal that help provide context.  Al = 6 ppm, Fe = 21, and Copper = 19.  It looks like you've got only 27 hours on the plane in a year which suggests it's been sitting a good bit.   Like others said, the key is the filter.  You need to know if it's ferrous or not and how much it is.  Google Mike Busch's articles & videos on this too.

Back to your original question I found ferrous metal, flew 25 hours, found more, flew 15 more, found more aluminum than steel.  Pulled a cylinder and looked at the cam with the scope and found spalling.

The 27 hours on the oil is from the second oil change for the year. Actually had over 60 hours for the year, which isn't a lot.

How many hours were on your engine when you pulled the cylinder? 

[N201MKTurbo]

20 minutes ago, Joe Larussa said:

So we are going start with the borescope and remove rocker covers.

You might want to pull your mag and borescope the accessory case.

[Joe Larussa]

Good idea!

 

[ArtVandelay]

You might want to pull your mag and borescope the accessory case.

Why would it be producing metal? Assuming no oil failure, the gears really aren’t under great stress?

[N201MKTurbo]

35 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why would it be producing metal? Assuming no oil failure, the gears really aren’t under great stress?

I had a gear mount come loose and tear up the engine once. Granted, that was on an IO-360 A1A which is different. The bearing problem I had on my J was on the rear bearing and you may have seen it from the accessary case. If the oil is drained, you can look into the bottom of the sump with a bore scope, but you can get there through the dip stick, but you can't move around much. It is just an easy way to see a bunch of the moving parts of your engine.

[Matt Ward]

2 hours ago, Joe Larussa said:

The 27 hours on the oil is from the second oil change for the year. Actually had over 60 hours for the year, which isn't a lot.

How many hours were on your engine when you pulled the cylinder? 

About 1600 but it had a few years of < 30 per year before I bought it.  I went ahead and bought a zero time.  From what I understand, they don't usually stop making metal once they start.

[EricJ]

8 hours ago, Joe Larussa said:

Engine was overhauled 2016 and yesterdays oil sample came back with elevated metals and small shiny particles in the filter.

Shop says fly and resample in 30 hours. What would you do? My stomach is sick. 

Oil report.pdf 298.03 kB · 28 downloads

When mine started making metal both the local engine shop and the local Lycoming rep said to keep flying it and monitor the metals (in the context of the previously cited SB).   It made metal for several oil changes and then it started tapering off, and then the prop governor failed.   It turned out that in my case the metal was coming from the prop governor failing and destroying itself, and when that was changed everything went back to normal.

Every case is different, but it was interesting to me how both the engine shop and the Lycoming rep were like, "Yeah, they do that, keep an eye on it."      The metal quantities were within the limits described in the SB, which allows for quite a lot of metal.   Follow the SB carefully and oil analysis together with filter inspections are your friends.   The advice on checking the suction screen is good, too.   Mine was completely clean.

Edited November 12, 2021 by EricJ

[201Steve]

I flew about 80 hours while making metal, following the guidance. It never stopped so I tore it down to find the Bain of the Lycomings existence, failed lifters and a ground cam. 

[Guest]

I’ve never seen an engine magically stop making metal.  The longer it goes on the more internal damage get done.  Camshaft and lifter particles get pounded into piston skirts turning them into 2500 RPM metal rasps which score your cylinders.  Caught early enough you can limit the damage and costs.

Pulling a pair of cylinders is not difficult or overly expensive.

Clarence

[StevenL757]

16 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why would it be producing metal? Assuming no oil failure, the gears really aren’t under great stress?

Likely because the OP @Joe Larussa has only flown about 60 hours so far this year; essentially letting it sit for potentially long periods of time between operation.  Add to that the oil has only been changed once this year (essentially 5 to 6-month oil change intervals), and you have a recipe for rust to generate on surfaces where oil may no longer be present.

I found this to be the case with the first engine on my Ovation around 2012-2014.  One or two periods of letting the engine sit for longer than a month - despite being in a hangar - was enough to produce oil analysis readings similar to the OP.  Fortunately, inspections showed nothing of concern.  Flying the airplane regularly thereafter subsequently resulted in the values settling back to normal.

[Joe Larussa]

3 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Likely because the OP @Joe Larussa has only flown about 60 hours so far this year; essentially letting it sit for potentially long periods of time between operation.  Add to that the oil has only been changed once this year (essentially 5 to 6-month oil change intervals), and you have a recipe for rust to generate on surfaces where oil may no longer be present.

I found this to be the case with the first engine on my Ovation around 2012-2014.  One or two periods of letting the engine sit for longer than a month - despite being in a hangar - was enough to produce oil analysis readings similar to the OP.  Fortunately, inspections showed nothing of concern.  Flying the airplane regularly thereafter subsequently resulted in the values settling back to normal.

The plane has been flown at least an hour a week plus a few long trips. Never sat more than two weeks without being flown, except for two years ago when I had it painted. That was about 6 weeks. Doing a borescope and opening rocker covers now.

[Joe Larussa]

Okay, here's  a new one. I just received an email telling me they had mixed my sample up with someone else! Amended report

looks good.

[Utah20Gflyer]

8 minutes ago, Joe Larussa said:

Okay, here's  a new one. I just received an email telling me they had mixed my sample up with someone else! Amended report

looks good.

And that is why you don't act rashly and start tearing things a part right away.   You may still want to send the filter element to Blackstone and have them analyze where the metal in the filter is from.  Had the reports not been mixed up I would have said fly the 30 hours.  

[Guest]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:38 PM, Joe Larussa said:

Engine was overhauled 2016 and yesterdays oil sample came back with elevated metals and small shiny particles in the filter.

Shop says fly and resample in 30 hours. What would you do? My stomach is sick. 

Oil report.pdf 298.03 kB · 41 downloads

I’m confused, how does a mixed up sample explain shiny particles in the filter?  Or did you send the the filter as well?

Clarence

[Joe Larussa]

4 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I’m confused, how does a mixed up sample explain shiny particles in the filter?  Or did you send the the filter as well?

Clarence

I guess it’s still making some metal, just no where near as much as they thought.