G1000 life cycle and diminishing value

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

Ovations… approx s/n 333 x 519, plus a couple after 2008.  Call it 175 flying in North America

Acclaim approx s/n 1 - 129 plus up to 137 in 2015-16.  Call it 110 in North America.

Bravo s/n 353 and up.  Dunno how many that is

-dan

The last 21 Bravos from 330 (for sale right now on Controller) - 350, are GX (G1000). 

[Schllc]

On 10/23/2021 at 9:19 PM, midlifeflyer said:

Perhaps, if those were the only two options. My point is they are not. 

I am not trying to change your mind. If you think having a g1000 in a Mooney is going to relegate it to scrap aluminum we can agree to disagree. 
I was trying to provide my actual ownership experience with owning several legacy g1000, and one nxi Mooney.  Among these I have close to 1000 hours of ownership and PIC with this platform. 
I have also done the Waas upgrade on two of my previous planes.
To say it’s impossible to do, or prohibitively expensive is not correct. 
While it may take a little looking and time, the boxes are not difficult to find and the upgrade is simple and can be done for under 20k if you’re patient, and under 30k if you have to have it now.  One plane cost me 12k and the other 16k.
With regard to upgrading, I don’t really know what one would want to upgrade it to, assuming the nxi wasn’t available.
The integration of all the components, ease of use and reliability is in many ways superior to  collection of individual units and much easier to service and repair.  The g1000 is really an amazing platform, both with the gfc700 and the stec, I’ve owned more than one of both models. 
Spending 100k to put in another set of avionics for marginal functional benefit doesn’t seem like a wise choice. 
There are, I’ll admit, some cons, the processors are not as fast, it doesn’t have some of the fancier menus or a touch screen, but that doesn’t make it less capable.  
Maybe not as convenient or intuitive, but not complicated or antiquated by any stretch. 
If garmin stops supporting them, that’s a different story, but there are thousands of planes out there with legacy g1000’s and there is no end in sight for support. 

The g1000 isn’t the latest and greatest, it has its faults and challenges, and is obviously not perfect, but suggesting it’s useless , outdated, or ruins the value of the plane just isn’t correct. 
I think you may do a disservice to people trying to gather information about buying a plane when you conflate opinion with experience.  
I was a little wary for this reason before I bought my first one and I can confidently say, I am glad I bought and currently own a g1000. In fact the only thing I really miss about the nxi, is the flight stream. 
I think garmin is intentionally making this unavailable in the legacy platform to force upgrades, which sucks for people like us who don’t yet have that path. 
I believe it will come eventually. 

[GeeBee]

10 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Not enough

300+ units. How does that compare with other make and models on the upgrade list?

 

[exM20K]

4 hours ago, GeeBee said:

300+ units. How does that compare with other make and models on the upgrade list?

 

Bonanza: s/n 3630 - 4126 with some pretty big gaps in the serial numbers.

-dan

[LANCECASPER]

42 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Bonanza: s/n 3630 - 4126 with some pretty big gaps in the serial numbers.

-dan

Good reference point. If Textron hadn't bought Beechcraft I doubt the upgrade would have happened. If Textron bought Mooney they could build Bonanzas and Mooneys at the same location. Long term that would be the best thing that could ever happen for Mooney owners.

[Bentonck]

I have enjoyed perusing the threat.  As one of the legacy G1000 owners (mine without WAAS as it does not exist in Brazil and therefore not needed) ... the real question is out of the 300 or so airframes flying how many people would spend $30-50k to upgrade to NXi?  At this point I would not.  *IF* the G1000 became unservicable due to Garmin not supporting it anymore (unlikely in the medium term as there are thousands flying still) then it would become a different issue.  For the foreseeable future though (and as an economist I can tell you, in the long term we're all dead!) it will be supported and, while showing a little age, is still an EXCELLENT platform and coupled with the GFC700 in my plane leaves very little to be desired in the way of features, really.... but IF there was no option at some point, I am quite sure there are enough airframes at 300 to warrant an STC from Garmin or someone else...

Just for S&G I could ask Garmin, they have always been quite pleasant to deal with in the past and they have developed enough STC's now for the G1000 -> NXi that they must know the time and money needed to come up with one.  Everyone keeps touting their agreement with Mooney but does anyone really know what it entails or the limitations in that agreement?  There may be a clause that a 3rd party can't develop an STC but the now-for-sale Mooney had announced that they were going to do the NXi upgrade as one of the first things, so it would be interesting to know ..

I guess my point is that I'm not currently worried about the servicability of my G1000 and even if the NXi came available would not be in a big hurry to upgrade....my current setup fulfills the mission nicely and parts are readily available.

[jetdriven]

One big issue here, is that the air framer is the one that certifies the G 1000, not Garmin. So you know Garmin wants to sell you and NXI or anything else they can’t do that because it must go through the airframe manufacturer.  And it seems like Mooney is  not terribly interested in doing this, and if I recall correctly, the non-waas to waas upgrade on the Mooney was $80,000 because you had to get the GFC700 auto pilot. And everything else, Like LRUs and displays. And if I recall correctly they stopped offering this. To. So now to go from a legacy G 1000 to an NXI no that’s not going to happen. And when Garmin stops supporting the legacy G1000 you’re gonna have to pay $100,000 for somebody’s STC to retrofit it to a G50TXI or whatever the current flavor of what is on the market at that time.

[GeeBee]

No it is not 80K and you do not have to get the GFC700 A/P. If you wanted the VNAV feature yes, but I upgraded my G1000 to WAAS for 27K. I kept my STec A/P

[wingslevel]

Since the GX Mooneys first came out, we have had two big changes that have required accomodation by the platform - WAAS and adsb.  WAAS was eventually handled by Mooney/Garmin (although that path may not be available now to those that didn't convert?) and then adsb was accomplished by adding a 345 transponder (wasn't the transponder originally integrated with the G1000?). Both of these solutions occurred when Mooney was operational.

Problem is, we don't know what changes are likely to come in the next 20 years. Digital communications and clearance updates? New great circle routing that doesn't use fixes? Who knows. And the problem is that Mooney may not have an owner that is willing or able to fund these things (and assume liability if they fail) - or Mooney may not have an owner at all.

In addition to the major FAA-led changes like WAAS and adsb, there are other changes that have come from the tech world like touch screens and bluetooth streaming for data and route updates. It takes so many years to get a system FAA approved that, by the time it gets into an airplane, it is already years behind the private sector.

There are tons of jets that are stuck in this integrated platform world like the Beech premier, early falcons etc.  Some of those planes have old crt screens that may not even be available anymore. Big problem. 

So, if a GX owner really wanted out (I am not saying we are at that point yet...), what could they do? Could someone sift through all of the functionality of the G1000 system and figure out which parts could not be handled by a system containing a display, navigators, new autopilot, audio panel and transponder? Then create a new annunciator panel and incorporate those missing things? Then get an STC for that? Then could those Bravo and Ovation GX's just kind of return to the fold and be regular Bravos and Ovations? But what about the Acclaim? It was only ever certified with a G1000 and I don't think any of the above mentioned displays, navigators etc. have a Mooney TN on their approved model list. So that one would be tougher. Curious about whether this has been discussed or if any of it might be an option?

[GeeBee]

I am sure if there is money to be made, Garmin will have a solution. You can bet on it.

 

 

[RobertGary1]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:35 PM, TGreen said:

Me, too. I don't have WAAS and frankly don't see what's the big deal. The nonprecision minimums have always been low enough for me. 

Ouch.  You must not get fog. I often see nothing but rabbit lights at 200 feet in fog or smoke from local fires. 

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, wingslevel said:

Since the GX Mooneys first came out, we have had two big changes that have required accomodation by the platform - WAAS and adsb.  WAAS was eventually handled by Mooney/Garmin (although that path may not be available now to those that didn't convert?) and then adsb was accomplished by adding a 345 transponder (wasn't the transponder originally integrated with the G1000?). Both of these solutions occurred when Mooney was operational.

The solution is the Garmin GTX345R(emote) which is still integrated with the G1000.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, wingslevel said:

So, if a GX owner really wanted out (I am not saying we are at that point yet...), what could they do? Could someone sift through all of the functionality of the G1000 system and figure out which parts could not be handled by a system containing a display, navigators, new autopilot, audio panel and transponder? Then create a new annunciator panel and incorporate those missing things? Then get an STC for that? Then could those Bravo and Ovation GX's just kind of return to the fold and be regular Bravos and Ovations? But what about the Acclaim? It was only ever certified with a G1000 and I don't think any of the above mentioned displays, navigators etc. have a Mooney TN on their approved model list. So that one would be tougher. Curious about whether this has been discussed or if any of it might be an option?

Unfortunately no this is not possible, as has been discussed many times on here, since the G1000 is part of the type certificate. I am not bashing the G1000 airplanes. I would love to have an Acclaim, and not saying I never would, but my fear is that I'll own an orphaned airplane. Example: the flaps indicator, engine instruments, trim indicator, etc, etc are all part of the G1000. Avionics before the G1000 were never part of the type certificate. Not sure if its something Garmin required to develop the G1000 for the airframe or not.

[Schllc]

Can’t get less options than none, which is what g1000 Mooney owners have now!

But if there were options, what would one be “upgrading” to?
There isn’t a better “ whole system” than the g1000 to upgrade to, other than the nxi?  And even if you could rip it all out and replace it, it would cost you north of 100k, and for what?

Spending any notable amount of money to change that system wouldn’t get you anything significantly better, or more capable, it would just make you poorer.  
Aside from flight stream, the improvements have nothing to do with accuracy, reliability or providing functions that don’t exist in the g1000.

It is undeniable that the g1000 could be a problem for airframes at some point in the future, but it is not an undesirable platform today, and there is no real danger of losing support in the foreseeable future, simply because the fleet is so large it’s profitable. 
Even if parts tapered, the airframes that are able to get the upgrades will provide donor parts for years. 
If someone is wondering what challenges their plane “may” face in 20 years I guess this discussion is relevant, if not the subject is moot. 

 

[TGreen]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Ouch.  You must not get fog. 

We do, especially this time of year. I wait. 

[GeeBee]

The engine in your airplane is part of the Type Certificate. Are you absolutely wedded for life to that engine? A lot of Rocket owners would say no. The same thing will happen here. If Garmin does not support the G1000 in the future, indeed very quickly STCs will develop. This is hand wringing over an easily solvable problem.