Off airport landing

[GeorgePerry]

Good AOPA video and safety summary of a low altitude engine failure (in a mooney); "The impossible turn".  Need an AOPA membership to view

http://www.aopa.org/asf/pilotstories/index.html

[Buster1]

Food for thought.

In the F-16 (single engine of course) we train to get the aircraft to a glide-able position to a runway in the event of an engine malfunction.  (you should always know where the nearest airport is...always).  If that doesn't work, we eject.  Realizing that in the Mooney, ejection is not an option, I would surmise that if I can make it to a runway, I will put the gear down and land it.  If I cannot make a runway, I will leave them up and take what I can get.

I am not a Mooney pilot (yet), but from 300+ hours of GA experience and just looking at the Mooney gear system...they just don't appear to be built for off airport use, especially in an emergency.  I think you are asking for trouble by putting them down during an Off Airport EP.  The gear are made for a runway or other compatible surface.

[jrjaks]

Quote: Buster1

Food for thought.

In the F-16 (single engine of course) we train to get the aircraft to a glide-able position to a runway in the event of an engine malfunction.  (you should always know where the nearest airport is...always).  If that doesn't work, we eject.  Realizing that in the Mooney, ejection is not an option, I would surmise that if I can make it to a runway, I will put the gear down and land it.  If I cannot make a runway, I will leave them up and take what I can get.

I am not a Mooney pilot (yet), but from 300+ hours of GA experience and just looking at the Mooney gear system...they just don't appear to be built for off airport use, especially in an emergency.  I think you are asking for trouble by putting them down during an Off Airport EP.  The gear are made for a runway or other compatible surface.

[Magnum]

Quote: Buster1

Food for thought.

In the F-16 (single engine of course) we train to get the aircraft to a glide-able position to a runway in the event of an engine malfunction.  (you should always know where the nearest airport is...always).  If that doesn't work, we eject.  Realizing that in the Mooney, ejection is not an option, I would surmise that if I can make it to a runway, I will put the gear down and land it.  If I cannot make a runway, I will leave them up and take what I can get.

I am not a Mooney pilot (yet), but from 300+ hours of GA experience and just looking at the Mooney gear system...they just don't appear to be built for off airport use, especially in an emergency.  I think you are asking for trouble by putting them down during an Off Airport EP.  The gear are made for a runway or other compatible surface.

[Dan]

What would  be the disadvantage of stalling the aircraft as close to the ground as possible and having is essentailly fall, instead of scraping along on the belly? Keep the gears up in this situation.

Dan

[Magnum]

Quote: Dan

What would  be the disadvantage of stalling the aircraft as close to the ground as possible and having is essentailly fall, instead of scraping along on the belly? Keep the gears up in this situation.

Dan

[jlunseth]

We had this discussion on the MAPAlist.  Here are my thoughts.  The FAA wants us all trained to land somewhere other than a road.  The reasons are: (1) that there are cars on the road and they don't expect to see an airplane there, (2) roads have powerlines on both sides most of the time, so how are you going to get down to the road safely.

They apparently have not flown out in the midwest much.  Here we have gravel roads every mile and they are very lightly traveled.  Moreoever, you can see any car on the road from the air (if there is a car, there is going to be only one).  In addition, every "bare field" - which is what they train you to land on - has powerlines.  Very often the field creates enough backscatter that it is not possible to see that there are power lines blocking your chosen field until you are committed.  Last but not least, anyone who thinks of a farm field as smooth and easy to land on has not ever been on one.  Except when there are crops, they are plowed, and plowed fields are the worst landing surface short you can chose.  If I am ever in this situation, and unless there is clearly a hayfield around and not a crop field, I am going for the nearest road, powerlines or no.

As for gas tanks rupturing, that is why we are trained to open and block open the exit door before going in - so we can get out as fast as possible.  Gas tanks can rupture in a gear up because of a rock or other ground obstruction but the gear in the wheel wells is at least some protection for the tanks, they can rupture in a gear down off-field from having the landing gear punched up through the tanks.  Whether they will rupture or not is a matter of chance either way.  I think you pick gear up or gear down based on the field surface and nothing else.  If it is rough, gear up.

[The-sky-captain]

Did anybody here watch the new ASF video on AOPA? It was a C model Mooney doing the impossible turn and being sucessful. The cool part was the fact that an onboard camera caught the whole thing live. At the time of his engine failure he was only 500' AGL and he made it back without a scratch. IMO that is way to low to execute a 180 (1000 AGL is my personal limit) and I probably would have landed straight. Once again... I'm in my armchair so take it all with a grain of salt.

[GeorgePerry]

Yep it worked out for him, but I think it had as much to do with luck as skill.

http://flash.aopa.org/asf/pilotstories/impossibleturn/index.cfm

He had a lot of things going for him.  First the weather was very cold allowing for much better than book performance, both in terms of engine horsepower (when it was running) and from the airframe in terms of density altitude and climb.  Second, The airplane was very light, as he was the sole passenger.  Lastly the pilot was lucky to have a decent headwind slowing GS away from the field on take off, which became a tailwind pushing him back to the runway after the turn.

As for his technique, the stall horn went off multiple times during the glide as he "stretched" it to clear some trees.  Judging from the video he cleared those trees by only a few feet.  After all that he overshot the runway not once but twice. 

Bottom line is he was very lucky.  Had he delayed his turn by just a second or two, or been a bit heavier, or been just a few feet lower the plane would have clipped the tops of the trees and crashed. 

Safety statistics tell a compelling story about those who attempt this from less than 1000' in a light SE plane; most who do fail with tragic and deadly consequences.

With all that as a caveat...As a CFII I do teach the technique.  With a field elevation of 20-30 feet I use 1000 feet as the "hard deck".  I have the student perform a "simulated takeoff" beginning at about 75 knots and 1000 feet over the departure end of the runway.  We make a VY climb to 2000 feet.  At that point I simulate an engine failure and make the student wait for 3-4 seconds before reacting.  After that the student can attempt to make the turn.  About 1/3 are successful on the first attempt.  About 1/3 don't make it back and / or align the plane with the runway.  The remaining 1/3 get too slow or overbank and I discontinue the exercise.

If Mooney pilots out there want to practice this, I suggest having an experienced CFI/Safety Pilot in the right seat to supervise and instruct.  Conduct a thorough preflight brief and discuss minimum airspeeds, altitudes and max bank angles that are not to be exceeded during the maneuver.  The engine out "turn back" is an option, but like most things that require skill, if it's attempted without supervised practice, the chances of a successful "real world" engine out 180 turn at low altitude is not very good.

 

[Magnum]

Quote: GeorgePerry

As for his technique, the stall horn went off multiple times during the glide as he "stretched" it to clear some trees.  Judging from the video he cleared those trees by only a few feet.  After all that he overshot the runway not once but twice. 

[GeorgePerry]

I believe that if it were the gear warning horn it would be continuous.  The warning sound seems to go off as the nose attitude pitches up...but then again, without seeing the panel it's hard to tell.

[Kwixdraw]

I believe he mentions in the narration that it was the gear warning horn. Also the pilot stated several times that he was very luckey and did not recommend that anyone do what he did.

Personally I don't like the idea of being anywhere near wires. Even the smallest of them can change the outcome dramatically if you catch any part of the aircraft on one. Lost a couple cousins that way. They hooked a wingtip in the wires over a highway after making the impossible turn and went in inverted. Poof!  If it should roll I guess gear down works but otherwise the gear stays up and I needed a one piece belly mod anyway.