GFC500 Suitable Replacement for KFC225?

[V1VRV2]

Im upgrading my panel to the legacy model G600 and contemplating an autopilot swap. Wondering if the GFC500 is an upgrade to the KFC225? I know it allow some capabilities with the G600 that the KFC225 won’t allow. My G600 has a GSU75 ADAHRS unit and wondering if that is an acceptable input to the GFC500. I love the KFC225 but would like to be able to utilize all the features of the G600.

[donkaye]

9 minutes ago, V1VRV2 said:

Im upgrading my panel to the legacy model G600 and contemplating an autopilot swap. Wondering if the GFC500 is an upgrade to the KFC225? I know it allow some capabilities with the G600 that the KFC225 won’t allow. My G600 has a GSU75 ADAHRS unit and wondering if that is an acceptable input to the G600. I love the KFC225 but would like to be able to utilize all the features of the G600.

I'm not sure why you would want the G600 instead of the G500.  At any rate, the GFC 500 is a significant advance over the KFC 225.  Some of the extras you get with the GFC 500 is ESP (Electronic Stability Protection), LVL Protection if inadvertently entering an unusual attitude, VNAV with automatic multiple step downs, and IAS climbs and descents.  You also get light weight brushless servos, which are much less expensive, if they ever need to be replaced.  You do lose one item, CWS.  I find that to be a non issue.

[V1VRV2]

Thanks Don... used G600’s and G500’s are the same price. The G600 has synthetic vision standard so it’s a no brainer. The G500 it’s an option you need an unlock card to gain access. Most used units don’t have the access cards included. Some used dealers will only sell G600’s for this reason.

I don't know if those features are worth the $20,000 price tag to upgrade.I know both AP’s are attitude based but do they offer the same performance?

 

[donkaye]

10 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Thanks Don... used G600’s and G500’s are the same price. The G600 has synthetic vision standard so it’s a no brainer. The G500 it’s an option you need an unlock card to gain access. Most used units don’t have the access cards included. Some used dealers will only sell G600’s for this reason.

I don't know if those features are worth the $20,000 price tag to upgrade.I know both AP’s are attitude based but do they offer the same performance?

 

Yes, that's a good reason for getting the G600.  SVT is really worth having.  Regarding upgrading the AP: yes, the 225 is a nice autopilot, but if anything goes wrong with the servos it's a minimum 3,000 to overhaul. If anythng goes wrong with the computer, then you have to deal with BK and their exorbitant pricing.  During the tine I had my KFC 150 I need to overhaul servos 3 times. The cost of the GSA 28 servos is only 1,500 per servo.

Personally I had a wing rock that I spent over 5,000 trying to get rid of after I installed the G500.  It never got solved until I upgraded to the GFC 500.  The GFC 500 is the best autopilot I have flown.  In combination with the G500 TXi and the GTNs flying with it couldn't be better. 

[ilovecornfields]

I’m going to disagree with Don here (although nothing he said is wrong) but I’m not sure I would replace a KFC225 with a GFC500. I recently had the roll servo fail on my KFC225 (which another Mooneyspacer diagnosed based on a 7 second video I sent asking him what was wrong with my AP). I decided that maybe it was time to upgrade so I got a couple of quotes that were all in the $18-20k range (but included a GI-275 so it might have been cheaper with a G5).

Instead of doing that I went to Executive Autopilots at SAC and in 1 day he pulled out my roll servo, rebuilt it, put a new motor in and put the plane back together). Total cost was $1500. 
 

So, is the GFC500 better? Absolutely. Is it $18k better than the KFC225? For me, no. 
 

When I asked my CFO about upgrading the autopilot she reminded me of a kitchen remodel that was much more important to my livelihood than a fancy autopilot.

[LANCECASPER]

14 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Im upgrading my panel to the legacy model G600 and contemplating an autopilot swap. Wondering if the GFC500 is an upgrade to the KFC225? I know it allow some capabilities with the G600 that the KFC225 won’t allow. My G600 has a GSU75 ADAHRS unit and wondering if that is an acceptable input to the GFC500. I love the KFC225 but would like to be able to utilize all the features of the G600.

To answer your question, "My G600 has a GSU75 ADAHRS unit and wondering if that is an acceptable input to the GFC500". I believe the answer is No, but others know more about this than me - I think you'll also need a Garmin G5 since that's where the "Brains" of the GFC500 are.

Edit: Correction, as @MIm20c mentions below, a GI275 would also work with it, so you'll need either a G5 or GI275.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

I’m going to disagree with Don here (although nothing he said is wrong) but I’m not sure I would replace a KFC225 with a GFC500. I recently had the roll servo fail on my KFC225 (which another Mooneyspacer diagnosed based on a 7 second video I sent asking him what was wrong with my AP). I decided that maybe it was time to upgrade so I got a couple of quotes that were all in the $18-20k range (but included a GI-275 so it might have been cheaper with a G5).

Instead of doing that I went to Executive Autopilots at SAC and in 1 day he pulled out my roll servo, rebuilt it, put a new motor in and put the plane back together). Total cost was $1500. 
 

So, is the GFC500 better? Absolutely. Is it $18k better than the KFC225? For me, no. 
 

When I asked my CFO about upgrading the autopilot she reminded me of a kitchen remodel that was much more important to my livelihood than a fancy autopilot.

I flew with the KFC 150 for 26 years. For the first 22 years, except for a couple of servo overhauls, it provided good service for an autopilot of its time.  For the next 4 years I got around the wing rock in NAV mode by flying in GPSS mode most of the time.  There was no wing rock in that mode.   So when the GFC 500 came along, I really didn't think about money in my decision to get it.  It was meant to interface with all my other Garmin products and provide added functionality not available with the KFC 150--and it has.

Does spending money on any upgrade item for your plane make economic sense when the original item is working perfectly well?  In my opinion, no.  But, depending on your financial picture, one maybe should not think in terms of monetary value, but rather in terms the extra value provided your flying experience.  In that case the GFC 500 should be high on the priority list of Mooney upgrades.  OTOH, if other priorities take precedence over your airplane, those needs need to be met first.

[MIm20c]

I agree with the above you will need a G5 or 275 to backup your g600 and provide attitude info to your gfc. 
 

Another option is buy some used parts for your 225. It’s a great AP and I’m not convinced it’s less durable than the gfc. 
 

If you’d like to start collect some really nice 225 parts I have a large stack on my desk right now...

[ArtVandelay]

Another option is buy some used parts for your 225. It’s a great AP and I’m not convinced it’s less durable than the gfc. 

If You’re planning on keeping an old autopilot, I would definitely recommend buying spares when they become available from those that do upgrades.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I have a spare (already overhauled) pitch servo for the KFC225 stored and ready to go in.   It cost about $1800 to overhaul it.   We recently reworked the Roll servo, it was a bit cheaper to overhaul.   The roll servo has good history, relatively, lasting 2000 hours.  The pitch servo, about 400 hours.  

The rest of the KFC225 system, once you ditch the spinning gyros of the original AI and HSI, is pretty reliable.  Yes, the GFC600 (PA46 needs the 600) would be nicer.   Probably not $35K worth of nice, tho I do have lust in my heart for the IAS mode it would offer.  Like Don, I find the loss of CWS of little concern.  

[jamesm]

Please excuse my ignorance regarding  CWS (Control Wheel Steering) what is it used for ? or why or how is it used?

The reason I ask is the real early model  Boeing 757 and 767 Simulator autopilot's  MCP (Mode Control Panel) use to have CWS as on buttons on the MCP.

Then as time went on the CWS buttons had covers then eventually no longer an option. I might be wrong on this but since many of the  Autopilot advancements came from the side of Commercial  aviation. which would make sense since they have the financing to produce the various autopilot features.  In other words what works and what didn't work so well as autopilot features. For example having a wing lever is better than no autopilot,but having a  Rate based auto pilots is better a wing lever, and of course having an Attitude based autopilot is better than rate based pilot. and so on and so on.

I guess  I never really understood how or when to use CWS feature on the autopilot.

 

 

Thanks,

James '67C

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, jamesm said:

Please excuse my ignorance regarding  CWS (Control Wheel Steering) what is it used for ? or why or how is it used?

The reason I ask is the real early model  Boeing 757 and 767 Simulator autopilot's  MCP (Mode Control Panel) use to have CWS as on buttons on the MCP.

Then as time went on the CWS buttons had covers then eventually no longer an option. I might be wrong on this but since many of the  Autopilot advancements came from the side of Commercial  aviation. which would make sense since they have the financing to produce the various autopilot features.  In other words what works and what didn't work so well as autopilot features. For example having a wing lever is better than no autopilot,but having a  Rate based auto pilots is better a wing lever, and of course having an Attitude based autopilot is better than rate based pilot. and so on and so on.

I guess  I never really understood how or when to use CWS feature on the autopilot.

 

 

Thanks,

James '67C

Here's what the KFC150 Pilot's Guide says: 

CONTROL WHEEL STEERING MODE (CWS) With the autopilot engaged, control wheel steering (CWS) allows the pilot to maneuver the aircraft without disengaging the autopilot. To use control wheel steering, depress the CWS button on the yoke. This releases the autopilot servos and allows you to assume manual control while autopilot control functions are placed in a synchronization state. This means that when you release the CWS button, the autopilot will smoothly resume control of the aircraft and fly it to the lateral command you were using prior to engaging CWS. The vertical command used by the autopilot will be the one existing when CWS is released.

I've used it to deviate around build ups.

 

By the way on the Ovation I had I loved the KFC225 autopilot. I couldn't imagine taking it out unless it reached the point of being too costly to service.

[flyboy0681]

15 hours ago, jamesm said:

I guess  I never really understood how or when to use CWS feature on the autopilot.

I use CWS when the unit is engaged and I have to make a quick altitude adjustment but don't want to wait for the units 500fpm rate. It's also very useful when skirting clouds because it's easy to manually get back on the heading. Left to the A/P, it will seek the quickest way go get back on course and sometimes that results in a very sharp turn toward the magenta. The only problem with the King unit is the actual CWS button itself, it's very sharp and digs into ones finger, making it painful to use for a prolonged period if time.

[donkaye]

39 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

The only problem with the King unit is the actual CWS button itself, it's very sharp and digs into ones finger, making it painful to use for a prolonged period if time.

You can and should get a cap that covers the red pointed switch (see below).  I can't stand to be poked by those switches.  I have all of mine capped.  Top Gun has had them and so has my Avionics shop.

[flyboy0681]

5 minutes ago, donkaye said:

You can and should get a cap that covers the red pointed switch (see below).  I can't stand to be poked by those switches.  I have all of mine capped.  Top Gun has had them and so has my Avionics shop.

 

I never knew it existed. If you could paste a link here it would be greatly appreciated.

[donkaye]

2 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I never knew it existed. If you could paste a link here it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sorry, there are no links.  I'd just ask your avionics shop or MSC.

[ZuluZulu]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

You can and should get a cap that covers the red pointed switch (see below).  I can't stand to be poked by those switches.  I have all of mine capped.  Top Gun has had them and so has my Avionics shop.

I think I have the exact same switches.  Do you know what size the speed brake cap is?  That's the only one I haven't been able to cover, and the avionics shop didn't know either.

P.S. Does "checklist" talk to the G500 TXi?

P.P.S. What do you use CWS for now that you have a GFC 500?  I had my shop map it to Garmin's Teligence and it works great.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Guns/missiles select switch.  

[donkaye]

22 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

I think I have the exact same switches.  Do you know what size the speed brake cap is?  That's the only one I haven't been able to cover, and the avionics shop didn't know either.

P.S. Does "checklist" talk to the G500 TXi?

P.P.S. What do you use CWS for now that you have a GFC 500?  I had my shop map it to Garmin's Teligence and it works great.

That a picture was taken pre upgrade.  There is a hole there now.  The checklist has been converted to the Playback, and Telligence is one the other side of the yoke.

[Lance Link]

Top Gun in Stockton sold me a cap for the speed brake switch.  They may have more.  Give them a call.  They need to pay their rent this month and you can help!

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, Lance Link said:

Top Gun in Stockton sold me a cap for the speed brake switch.  They may have more.  Give them a call.  They need to pay their rent this month and you can help!

I sent a message to Top Gun and received the following reply: "If it’s the same as the black mic switch cap, then yes we stock the Mooney mic switch caps.  Otherwise, this would be a King part and you’d need to refer to an avionics shop that’s a King dealer/service center."

Is it?

 

 

[Rmag]

9 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

I never knew it existed. If you could paste a link here it would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Electroswitch/SW53AA2?qs=5muX3C0yOnj5E%2FJxlK6wTg%3D%3D
 

Before:

After:

[carusoam]

+1 for the standard Mouser switch caps...  the industrial world has the same challenge with these industrial switches...

And they are priced like industrial switch caps...

PP thoughts only, not an electronics guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[flyboy0681]

11 hours ago, Rmag said:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Electroswitch/SW53AA2?qs=5muX3C0yOnj5E%2FJxlK6wTg%3D%3D

 

I just ordered three of them (two for safe keeping, just in case). I thank you, but most of all - my thumb thanks you.

[gsxrpilot]

I ordered a couple as well. 

Thanks!