CIES Issues

[Niko182]

With the panel update i did, i also had cies senders installed. On both tanks there seems to be a dead spot of about 3 to 4 gallons between 32 and 36 gallons. Any one had this issue before. Ive been talking to the shop and they have no clue.

[carusoam]

Could be mechanical...

Could be software...

When the fuel level was being calibrated... one gallon at a time... did something happen out of the ordinary?

Or did this situation just appear to have started recently?

 

Is there an easy method to check the output from an individual float sensor?

A request we can send to our Cies guy... @fuellevel

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Most likely its with the calibration - start with the data from the calibration and see if its curve makes sense or shows a flat spot in the 32-36 gallon.

There is also the possibility that the outboard senders are hanging up rubbing the leading edge of the tank if this wasn't checked real well and the arm bent/adjusted to ensure it didn't touch. I had to adjust mine for that.

 

[Niko182]

Just now, kortopates said:

Most likely its with the calibration - start with the data from the calibration and see if its curve makes sense or shows a flat spot in the 32-36 gallon.

There is also the possibility that the outboard senders are hanging up rubbing the leading edge of the tank if this wasn't checked real well and the arm bent/adjusted to ensure it didn't touch. I had to adjust mine for that.

 

There is a flat spot. It jumps from 32 to 36 since the outboard floaters dont drop enough.

[kortopates]

That could be either of the 2 things I mentioned - calibration because the tanks weren’t kept level at that range (compare right and left calibration numbers in that range) or sender(s) rubbing against leading edge at that range.
It’s really not from the sender not dropping far enough, it’ll drop to the bottom at lower fuel quantities but that’s why you have 2 per tank.


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[Niko182]

Well i know its been a while but ive still been trying to figure out this issue. I took my outboard sender out and it looks completely different than what it replaced. @fuellevel have any ideas by any chance?

[Marauder]

Well i know its been a while but ive still been trying to figure out this issue. I took my outboard sender out and it looks completely different than what it replaced. [mention=14420]fuellevel[/mention] have any ideas by any chance?

If it will make you feel any better, mine also didn’t look like the factory units.



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[LANCECASPER]

On 1/30/2021 at 11:42 AM, Niko182 said:

With the panel update i did, i also had cies senders installed. On both tanks there seems to be a dead spot of about 3 to 4 gallons between 32 and 36 gallons. Any one had this issue before. Ive been talking to the shop and they have no clue.

It’s my understanding that on long bodies that the arms on the outboard senders have to be bent to clear and not get hung up and then calibrated after that.

[Niko182]

1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said:

It’s my understanding that on long bodies that the arms on the outboard senders have to be bent to clear and not get hung up and then calibrated after that.

Just spent the morning doing that and recalibrated it and no luck. 

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, Niko182 said:

Just spent the morning doing that and recalibrated it and no luck. 

Call Scott at CIES

[Fly_M20R]

I just got a GI275 EIS installed to accompany my dual GI275's and also installed CIES senders to "feed" the EIS. In doing so I found some interesting and undocumented (to me) issues regarding the CIES senders in the long body Mooney models (R, S, M, TN):  First, the floats are somewhat longer than the original ones. Second, the arm holding the floats is straight and not angled so as to keep the float lined up with the attachment plate. Third, neither the inboard or outboard senders have any laterality assigned to them, i.e. no right or left designation, just inboard or outboard. The inboard ones have all the room in the world in their location so as not get hung up on any structure. It is quite a different thing for the outboard ones. Since they have no laterality but the plate attaching to the panel can only be installed in the same orientation on both sides it results in the RIGHT tank sender having the FLOAT BEHIND the straight arm and therefore touching the spar. In order to correct this the arm needs to be bent forward as Paul from Weep-no-more suggested to me. However, it's a different and opposite story for the left side. When the LEFT is installed the FLOAT is IN FRONT of the the straight arm (i.e. flipped 180 deg) and therefore just below the aileron control rod. Therefore the left needs to be bent backward to get it to rest on the access panel between the spar and control rod as Paul also suggested. Bending the left arm forward like the right one will only get it further under the control rod.

I had to remove the most outboard top fuel tank access panel to be able to see exactly what the senders and respective floats were doing as well as manually move them through their whole travel. 

The dead spot you are experiencing is most likely due to the right sender float tip being hung up on some part of the spar and the left sender being hung up either below or above the aileron control rod.

See the attached pictures.

 Hope this info helps anyone installing CIES senders in long body Mooneys.

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:13 PM, LANCECASPER said:

It’s my understanding that on long bodies that the arms on the outboard senders have to be bent to clear and not get hung up and then calibrated after that.

Hi LANCECASPER,

They definitely need to be bent, however the right one needs to be bent forward and the left to the back. See my post and pictures above. 

Chris

 

[carusoam]

Great Ceis details Chris!

Lets see if @fuellevel is aware of these details… (M20R Ceis install detail)

Best regards,

-a-

[fuellevel]

that is a new one - but We can adjust as required  - it looks like if we were longer we would mis quite a bit more 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by fuellevel

[carusoam]

Note for @Fly_M20R above…

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, Fly_M20R said:

Hi LANCECASPER,

They definitely need to be bent, however the right one needs to be bent forward and the left to the back. See my post and pictures above. 

Chris

 

Yes the shop that did mine had to figure this out a couple years ago when they were installed in the Bravo that I had.

[kortopates]

Yep, there is no bend in the CIES arm in the picture.  So the installer didn't check for freedom of movement in the tank otherwise they would of discovered the need for the bend I wrote about  back in Jan 2021 above.

Just like @Fly_M20R did, I too removed the the top fuel tank inspection plate to make sure was getting adequate bend without the sender hanging up. A pain to be sure, but wasn't expecting to find them hanging up and they were very new at the time. The STC had just gotten approved when doing mine. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by kortopates

[Fly_M20R]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Yes the shop that did mine had to figure this out a couple years ago when they were installed in the Bravo that I had.

Even if shops have installed many CIES senders without any issues they may be stumped when first installing in a long body Mooney. It would be helpful if CIES had made these specific for right and left installation with the appropriate bend already done for right and left prior to shipping. It would save an enormous amount of time (and $$) and save having to remove the access panels to verify adequate positioning within the tank.

Chris 

[Fly_M20R]

3 hours ago, fuellevel said:

that is a new one - but We can adjust as required  - it looks like if we were longer we would mis quite a bit more 

 

 

Hi fuellevel,

From your profile it looks like you work at CIES. It is definitely a great and accurate product when moving freely. If I may make a suggestion, you could make the outboard senders for long body Mooneys (S, R, M, TN) specific for right and left wing placement with the arms already pre-bent at the factory (forward for right and back for left) to the precise angle so that the float (wider than the original factory sender) sits on the lower access panel and therefore has free travel all the way up and down. That would save a tremendous amount of headaches, bad choice of words, time and $$ during an installation. 

Thank you for replying to this thread.

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great Ceis details Chris!

Lets see if @fuellevel is aware of these details… (M20R Ceis install detail)

Best regards,

-a-

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for your comment and for bringing in @fuellevel into the conversation.

Regards,

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Yep, there is no bend in the CIES arm in the picture.  So the installer didn't check for freedom of movement in the tank otherwise they would of discovered the need for the bend I wrote about  back in Jan 2021 above.

Just like @Fly_M20R did, I too removed the the top fuel tank inspection plate to make sure was getting adequate bend without the sender hanging up. A pain to be sure, but wasn't expecting to find them hanging up and they were very new at the time. The STC had just gotten approved when doing mine. 

Hi Paul,

Looks like you had the same issue in your M20K that has shorter tanks and therefore less or no likelyhood for the sender to get hung up on the aileron control rod since it is further forward or completely out of the tank in your most outboard fuel bay. However, I can imagine that the one on the right (if oriented in the same direction as the one in long bodies) would have the possibility of hanging up on the spar. 

Which arms did you have to bend and in which direction?

Regards,

Chris

[carusoam]

13 minutes ago, Fly_M20R said:

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for your comment and for bringing in @fuellevel into the conversation.

Regards,

Chris

there is nobody higher up in the company than our contact at Ceis…

He is both THE technical guy and THE Business Management guy all in one.

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Fly_M20R said:

Hi Paul,

Looks like you had the same issue in your M20K that has shorter tanks and therefore less or no likelyhood for the sender to get hung up on the aileron control rod since it is further forward or completely out of the tank in your most outboard fuel bay. However, I can imagine that the one on the right (if oriented in the same direction as the one in long bodies) would have the possibility of hanging up on the spar. 

Which arms did you have to bend and in which direction?

Regards,

Chris

Chris, I had to bend both outboard sender arms in the aft direction. Inboard senders didn't have a problem. But both outboard sides hit the spar without without a bend. 

Also your correct, there isn't an issue with the aileron tube in the mid-bodies. 

[Fly_M20R]

7 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Chris, I had to bend both outboard sender arms in the aft direction. Inboard senders didn't have a problem. But both outboard sides hit the spar without without a bend. 

Also your correct, there isn't an issue with the aileron tube in the mid-bodies. 

That is interesting Paul. If you had to bend them both aft it means that the location of the fuel senders is behind the spar in the 252 and not in front as in the long bodies. One would then also surmise that the holes for the sender plates on the outboard "wall" of the fuel tank are oriented in such a way on the right and left that the senders likely end up at a 180 deg orientation with each other and therefore the floats on both sides point in the same direction (forward in your case) and not opposite to each other as in long body Mooneys. I tried to make the previous sentence intelligible but it does not mean I was successful!! 

Regards,

Chris

 

[kortopates]

4 minutes ago, Fly_M20R said:

That is interesting Paul. If you had to bend them both aft it means that the location of the fuel senders is behind the spar in the 252 and not in front as in the long bodies. One would then also surmise that the holes for the sender plates on the outboard "wall" of the fuel tank are oriented in such a way on the right and left that the senders likely end up at a 180 deg orientation with each other and therefore the floats on both sides point in the same direction (forward in your case) and not opposite to each other as in long body Mooneys. I tried to make the previous sentence intelligible but it does not mean I was successful!! 

Regards,

Chris

 

This was at least 5 years ago, so my memory isn't that great. But there is no fuel forward of the main spar. Forward of the main far is just air, wires and aileron rods - that gives the tanks greater protection from off field landing or bird strike . You'll see inspection covers that aren't sealed under the wings forward of the tank. You may be referring to the rear sub spar that is the aft end of the tank. I don't recall the outboard sender that far back, but it could be, and thinking about it now from a view under the wing its not very far forward from memory.  So perhaps it was hanging up on the rear sub-spar? - in which case to bend it away from the rear spar it would be a forward bend. That detail of location and therefore direction of bend I can't recall precisely, just needing to bend it away from the tank wall. Its got to be the same bend direction as your. Our tanks should be near identical except yours go out further outboard than mine, but bounded by the same forward and aft limits. (Although I also have Monroy extended tanks which aren't as far forward.)