O-360A1D Narrow Deck to Wide Deck Baffle Mods...

[flyer7324]

1962C. I'm going to install a Factory Reman Wide Deck with alternator and light weight starter in place of my existing Narrow Deck O-360 A1D with generator and Prestolite starter. I have heard that there are some baffle mods that have to be made to the 'doghouse' to accommodate the engine and/or the alternator and possibly the starter. Was wondering if anyone here has had any experience with this.

Thanks.....

[carusoam]

While we wait for the answer to arrive...

Got time to discuss the possibility of installing the IO360 instead? 
 

This is an idea that comes up often...

It can make financial sense when an OH is upcoming...

It really makes sense, if you are swapping out the block too...

PP thoughts only, not selling engines tonight...

As far as changes to the dog house... there are at least two for the alternator and light weight starter...

Check the parts manual for what part numbers are used for the change between wide and narrow decks...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

Some are also going with the IO-390:

Not sure if applicable to your particular airframe, the thread above is about a M20J, but given the $$$ involved probably worth at least a glance.

[mike20papa]

I've had experience with the light weight starter and alternator.  The mods are in the front baffle - to close up the original larger holes for the smaller starter and alternator drives.  I would imagine that you will also need new "inter cyl. baffles" that are mounted just below the cyl.s - but that is a Lycoming part.  Google the parts manuals for the 2 engines and check the part numbers - or call Lycoming.  I do not think the side baffles will require any thing.  Again, I would call Lycoming and ask them if the bolt holes have different patterns.  Hopefully not or else you will have to make new pieces there.  The rest of the engine baffles should not be a problem.

[flyer7324]

The IO's aren't listed on the TCDS so I'd need an STC for the M20C engine and airframe. LASAR has STC for 750.00 but would require engine baffling etc, etc..... Wouldn't appear to be economical for this application. Don't know of the existence of any other STC's for engines applicable to this airframe.....

View fullsize

200 HP Conversion (M20C, M20D, M20G, M20E&F; STC Authorization Only, No Parts Included)

No. 127

Speed Increase STC & Instructions ONLY Labor Hours 4.0 mph $750.00 80+

Description Retrofits the 200 hp Lycoming IO-360-XXX engine to the M20 C, D, & G model 180 HP Mooney. This STC also allows other 200 HP Lycoming Engine model options for the M20E & F, including the IO-360A1B6, as well as Hartzell and McCauley propeller options. Kit contains instructions & STC only.

[cctsurf]

20 minutes ago, mike20papa said:

I do not think the side baffles will require any thing. 

The valve covers are definitely different (larger) and the baffles around them will have to be cut differently.  I am not certain about the differences in the cooling fins, or spark plug placement, those might also get in the way.  It may just be a little aluminium to cut and new holes to drill, it may be much more than that.  Lycoming would know.  I know my baffles could use a rework, but as with anything in these old birds, making new things work in old planes can be a whole lot of work.  I have done the lightweight starter and alternator mods to the pressure cowl, there you are just filling in around the (smaller) new parts with aluminium and the silicone seals for that are a great improvement.

I'm curious why the switch between the narrow deck and wide deck, I know the wide deck has some advantages, but are they worth the rework?  I think you could get the light weight starter and alternator on a narrow deck and get your advantages there without the difficulty of major modification on our old pressure cowls. 

As to the upgrade to the IO-360, I think the pressure cowl work would be similar to just going to the wide deck, there is a narrow deck version of the IO, so it might be easier than this.  I think the difficulty is in the other accessories.  The fuel system must be changed and a higher pressure pump acquired.   The engine cables must be changed to attach to the fuel servo instead of the carb.  I believe many of the accessories would work, but I would guess that some would have to be changed.  I'm guessing the LASAR STC would direct with regard to that.  There is also a fairly signficant cost difference between the O-360 and the IO-360...but we're spending someone else's money here on MS, so no problem there.  (=

[flyer7324]

Lycoming does not manufacture or "remanufacture" the narrow deck O-360 anymore only the wide deck. I'd have to get my existing engine field overhauled to retain the narrow deck platform. Narrow deck cylinders are still manufactured.

[cctsurf]

3 hours ago, flyer7324 said:

Lycoming does not manufacture or "remanufacture" the narrow deck O-360 anymore only the wide deck. I'd have to get my existing engine field overhauled to retain the narrow deck platform. Narrow deck cylinders are still manufactured.

Wow.  Interesting choice on their part.  That'll lower their ability to serve the ageing population of aircraft... 

'course I'm a big believer in field overhauls.  I like to know where my parts came from.  There are a number of engine rebuild shops out there that aren't lycoming.  I would definitely consider one of them, you'll get just as good work (maybe better) and you won't pay the Lycoming premium.  If you search MS, you'll find them referenced.

[cctsurf]

This thread has a lot of good information and a number of shops referenced.

 

[Bunti]

You are allowed to use wide deck or narrow deck engines. It is your choice. Parts are available for both. Lycoming today sells  only wide deck engines but delivers all the parts you need for a field overhaul of a narrow deck engine. A lot of the parts are the same.  New narrow deck cylinders are available from Lycoming and Continental for our Lycoming engines. The Continentals are cheaper and need some lead time. In general, new wide deck cylinders are cheaper than narrow deck cylinders.

 My IO360 changed from a wide deck to a narrow deck during overhaul after an engine failure. The baffles had to be modified some how. This was done by the overhauler and took additional time. 

After my experience, I recommend to stay with whatever you have. If you have a narrow deck engine, get it overhauled and put it back on. This keeps everything easy. Call Sam or David at Jewell Aviation or any other overhauler.  Jewell did my overhaul and overhauled a lot of other Mooney engines for a reasonable price.

You can upgrade your starter and buy an alternator conversion kit and get it installed during the overhaul process. Best would be, if your engine is still working and you fly the plane to the overhauler. Let him remove and reinstall and even test fly the overhauled engine for you. This would be the best setup. I did not do that with my overhaul because the engine was not airworthy. It is getting more complicated, the more shops and different mechanics are involved. 

[cctsurf]

Just a couple of notes

I am not certain that all wide deck and narrow deck cylinders and cases can be mated, I believe it may be that narrow deck cylinders can be mated to a wide deck case, but possibly not the other way.  As Bunti said, I would definitely stay within the kind of deck you have.  The modifications to your baffles will add time to your rebuild and probably cost more than the difference in cylinder prices.

Lycoming and Continental (ECI) are not the only cylinder manufacturers out there, Superior Millennium cylinders are also an excellent choice, which is what I'm running on my Mooney.

I highly recommend the starter and alternator upgrade, in fact, some rebuilders will replace them as part of the rebuild.  Both upgrades are well worth it.

At rebuild time, I would highly suggest replacing all fuel and oil hoses and engine controls (throttle, mixture, prop, and carb heat).  Some rebuilders will do this automatically, some may not.  On my plane, it was not done and I would love to have the hose to the fuel pump from the gascolator replaced, but I think I would have to swing the engine to get that accomplished...  not happening.

Another thing, while the engine is off, take the opportunity to remove and repaint the engine mount.  I've heard that powder coating it can mask problems that need to be seen.  Again this was not done when my engine was off and it would make that engine compartment look SO much better.

We SO need a FAQ section on Mooneyspace, it seems that we have these questions often and it would be good to have a FAQ on rebuilds so that we don't have to say the same things over and over.

[cogboxer]

On 11/25/2020 at 7:06 AM, flyer7324 said:

1962C. I'm going to install a Factory Reman Wide Deck with alternator and light weight starter in place of my existing Narrow Deck O-360 A1D with generator and Prestolite starter. I have heard that there are some baffle mods that have to be made to the 'doghouse' to accommodate the engine and/or the alternator and possibly the starter. Was wondering if anyone here has had any experience with this.

Thanks.....

We did the same thing recently. Also swapped the original generator for a Plane Power Alternator. To my surprise the baffle modifications were all on the front -- had to remove some material to accomodate the alternator. Then riveted new silicone baffle seal to replace most of the felt that was in there before. All told it was not difficult and the seal is much better than before. 

[mike20papa]

Finally, the answer.  I think there is/was some confusion with this topic as some do not realize that "while all angle valve engines are wide deck engines - not all wide deck engines are angle valve engines." But at least you can rest easy knowing all eligible 180hp engines are parallel valve engines.  Joe