Battery relay question 1964 m20c, part number look up please

[Jim Peace]

I am thousands of miles from home....can someone look up a part number for me please in the parts manual 

I have a !964 M20c # 2799 and I want to change the battery contactor or relay or coil or whatever you call it.  I will enclose what I currently have.  

I am not sure of what I should buy and will take recommendations with a link...

I have an alternator but I have had it for about 4 years,,,not sure if that makes a difference...also when I look up what I currently have on the plane the closest I can get to the same says its for experimental.  

I do have the new skytech starter relay  and I know they make one for the battery but they show two different part numbers for the C and I am not sure why

Thank you

 

[carusoam]

Expect that we are talking about the Master relay/solenoid/contactor...

The think that acts like a fast acting switch when we turn on the master switch...

Essentially, it connects the battery to the main bus.

Hope that may help...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

Just now, carusoam said:

Expect that we are talking about the Master relay/solenoid/contactor...

Yes....that it

I am being my own mechanic and avionics guy now....10k is not enough to make things happen at a MSC

And we cannot call it a master anymore...

[Ross Taylor]

Hi Jim,

I just went through this for my E, so had the info handy.  This STS-M12 is an option:  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytec07-03565.php

Here's a screenshot from the PMA doc.  This doc also shows a part number of STS-S12 for the starter solenoid, so that may be what you saw?  I guess the M is for M******

 

[Jim Peace]

4 minutes ago, Ross Taylor said:

Hi Jim,

I just went through this for my E, so had the info handy.  This STS-M12 is an option:  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytec07-03565.php

Here's a screenshot from the PMA doc.  This doc also shows a part number of STS-S12 for the starter solenoid, so that may be what you saw?  I guess the M is for M******

 

Got it arigato from osaka. 

[Ross Taylor]

What a beautiful place, Jim.  I spent several years working in Japan every month, all over that country.  I do miss that a bit...  Glad I could help - it's rare I'm not asking the question!

[MooneyMitch]

4 minutes ago, Ross Taylor said:

What a beautiful place, Jim.  I spent several years working in Japan every month, all over that country.  I do miss that a bit...  Glad I could help - it's rare I'm not asking the question!

Ah...... the beauty of MSers! 

[SheryLoewen]

Cutler-Hammer Solenoid Relay 12v PN 6041H34B

 Paul Loewen

[Ross Taylor]

3 minutes ago, SheryLoewen said:

Cutler-Hammer Solenoid Relay 12v PN 6041H34B

 Paul Loewen

I tried to find one of those not long ago, when I was on this same hunt, since that's the original part number.  It seems that particular part is no longer readily available and I could only find $250 NOS instances of it on eBay or Skygeek (with a 6 week lead time).  I ended up going with the one I linked to from AS for about $80.  But Cutler-Hammer/Eaton stuff is top notch if you can find it.

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, Ross Taylor said:

I tried to find one of those not long ago, when I was on this same hunt, since that's the original part number.  It seems that particular part is no longer readily available and I could only find $250 NOS instances of it on eBay or Skygeek (with a 6 week lead time).  I ended up going with the one I linked to from AS for about $80.  But Cutler-Hammer/Eaton stuff is top notch if you can find it.

thank you

[Jim Peace]

On 6/28/2020 at 5:50 PM, Ross Taylor said:

Hi Jim,

I just went through this for my E, so had the info handy.  This STS-M12 is an option:  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/skytec07-03565.php

Here's a screenshot from the PMA doc.  This doc also shows a part number of STS-S12 for the starter solenoid, so that may be what you saw?  I guess the M is for M******

 

I have a three post on the plane.....can I get a 4 post like you suggest and make it work?

[Andy95W]

8 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I have a three post on the plane.....can I get a 4 post like you suggest and make it work?

Yes.  Depending on the application, one of the small terminals is either connected to ground or power.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/Lamar Starter Overview.pdf

[Ross Taylor]

8 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I have a three post on the plane.....can I get a 4 post like you suggest and make it work?

Yes - this one has a floating ground, instead of the case being grounded.  So the extra terminal is for a ground wire.  It comes with a jumper from the in/hot side to one of the coil terminals, with the plan that a ground can be run through a switch to activate it.  With a switched hot (positive), just remove the jumper and ground the other small terminal.

EDIT to add...I must have been typing when @Andy95W was posting.  Thanks Andy...nice pics and everything!

 

[Yetti]

I found the cutler and hammar one at McMaster carr a while back.   Metal can solenoids are doomed to fail.   The difference between solenoids is constant(Master) and intermittent (starter).  That and price.

[Yetti]

Not all 4 post Solenoids are the same.   For instance the Ford Tractor one in the belly on my F for the gear actuator the Third terminal is hot to hold the brake on the motor off while the motor is running.

[Ross Taylor]

I don't think Jim was asking about "just any" 4-terminal relay/solenoid/contactor.  I believe he wondered if this particular 4-terminal relay would work, when he's got a 3-terminal relay.  The 3-terminal relay is different in the sense that the missing 4th terminal is the case ground...but from a wiring diagram perspective, it's the same either way (the difference being that a grounded case solenoid could not be easily actuated with a switched ground wire).  So I wanted to assure him that this particular solenoid would work in his case.  There is a starter version of this, but the part linked to above is the master (continuous duty) version.  This isn't just a Napa starter solenoid, which isn't rated for continuous duty.

As I mentioned, I did try to find the original part just a few months ago.  A search for the part number 6041H34B on either Grainger or McMaster-Carr will yield no current results.  The only place I can find the original part is on eBay, so I went with this legal replacement.

On your "tractor relay", that may be a normally closed solenoid where energizing the coil opens the brake circuit...or it's a normally open solenoid, but closing that circuit does something to hold the brakes off. I know nothing about how that's set up on the J.  No telling...but a different beast than this.

[Jim Peace]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:05 PM, Ross Taylor said:

 I ended up going with the one I linked to from AS for about $80.  But Cutler-Hammer/Eaton stuff is top notch if you can find it.

how is it doing....some of the reviews on that are so hit and miss....high failure rate after not that long in service....you would think these would work for years and years just like the older stuff that you cant find anymore....

[Ross Taylor]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

how is it doing....some of the reviews on that are so hit and miss....high failure rate after not that long in service....you would think these would work for years and years just like the older stuff that you cant find anymore....

So far, just fine...but I admit that I have not flown much in the four and a half or five months since I got it. However it's probably been on more than if I had been flying. While I'm doing some avionics and audio panel upgrades, I've had the master on regularly for testing.  But I certainly can't speak to longevity yet.

 

[Seymour]

Reviving this thread as I'm AOG on an island in Canada off the coast of Maine that has a 3+ day "Express" delivery time, so I need to get it right (this time).    I'll provide more details on my maiden cross-border flight and the ensuing adventures in aircraft repair, but for now I'd simply like to confirm that the correct part is ordered.   Luckily, I'm solo so that no passengers need to be someplace soon so I'm putting Buffet's Margaritaville on infinite loop and enjoying the great (flying) weather.

1965 M20E 

Diagnosed Failure:  Starter Solenoid  -  Part number DR1464  (mounted to the firewall)  

Specific questions:   

1.   Is anyone able to confirm that this is the correct replacement part?  (Certainly, google thinks so.)

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/sts-12s24s.php      

I ordered the 12V option from Aircraft Spruce in Brantford Ontario yesterday; it is expected to begin it's long journey on Monday night.

2.   The part is mounted directly to the firewall with two screws.   Are there nuts on the inside of the firewall that I need to find as I back out the mounting screws or are they tinnerman (or some other type of captured) nuts?

3.   For information only, I'm looking for the best old thread on hand-propping an IO-360-AIA.    Savvy's AOG service says "Not Recommended".   Local aviation folks say "Good luck finding someone to do it".     ...and I've heard enough horror stories to avoid it but I'm looking for good reading material while I wait for another part. 

Reaching out to @M20Doc because he might know the answer without having to research and may have Canadian sources that I'm not familiar with.  

[Seymour]

Might already have an answer from the comments on Aircraft Spruce:

 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Seymour said:

Reviving this thread as I'm AOG on an island in Canada off the coast of Maine that has a 3+ day "Express" delivery time, so I need to get it right (this time).    I'll provide more details on my maiden cross-border flight and the ensuing adventures in aircraft repair, but for now I'd simply like to confirm that the correct part is ordered.   Luckily, I'm solo so that no passengers need to be someplace soon so I'm putting Buffet's Margaritaville on infinite loop and enjoying the great (flying) weather.

1965 M20E 

Diagnosed Failure:  Starter Solenoid  -  Part number DR1464  (mounted to the firewall)  

Specific questions:   

1.   Is anyone able to confirm that this is the correct replacement part?  (Certainly, google thinks so.)

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/sts-12s24s.php      

I ordered the 12V option from Aircraft Spruce in Brantford Ontario yesterday; it is expected to begin it's long journey on Monday night.

2.   The part is mounted directly to the firewall with two screws.   Are there nuts on the inside of the firewall that I need to find as I back out the mounting screws or are they tinnerman (or some other type of captured) nuts?

3.   For information only, I'm looking for the best old thread on hand-propping an IO-360-AIA.    Savvy's AOG service says "Not Recommended".   Local aviation folks say "Good luck finding someone to do it".     ...and I've heard enough horror stories to avoid it but I'm looking for good reading material while I wait for another part. 

Reaching out to @M20Doc because he might know the answer without having to research and may have Canadian sources that I'm not familiar with.  

Spruce would be your best bet.  The current Mooney version is $900.

It should be attached to the firewall with anchor nuts.

Clarence

[Seymour]

Thanks for the quick response, Clarence!   

Now let's see if I can find lodging on the island for the mechanic again once the part arrives...    on Canada Day.      

[Guest]

Where are you stranded?

Clarence 

[Seymour]

Grand Manan - CCN2

If you have to be stuck on an island, this is the place!

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, Seymour said:

Grand Manan - CCN2

If you have to be stuck on an island, this is the place!

Send pics!

One of the relay…

And about a dozen of the isle….

Some relays break parts and jam inside… others just get dirty and stick…

Helps to have a volt meter to do some problem solving…. Or a volleyball named Wilson…

-a-