N2652W will have a new home!

[Andy95W]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:46 PM, hammdo said:

WELL, the intrigue continues!The cylinder shop (Sal's in Prosper) told us he knew I was using Camguard -- so naturally I asked how he knew.  Per them, stated they've seen more cylinders with issues come in from using Camguard -- when flying alot (like I do). 

So the big question for you and for everybody else is whether or not you’ll keep using Camguard?

I’ve been alternating using AvBlend and Camguard every other oil change, but I’ll likely just change to only AvBlend. When the Aviation Consumer did a test on additives years ago, they found that AvBlend and Camguard had comparable results over straight weight oils and multi-weights.  There has also been some evidence (probably apocryphal) that AvBlend might help with valve sticking.

This post will probably give @jetdriven a conniption fit.   (just kidding Byron)

[hammdo]

I’m going to stop using Camguard, based on this shop’s recommendations. Up until now, I would have kept on using it. Once I have the cylinder broke in, I’ll go with Victory oil. Avblend, I’ll be asking the shop when I pick up the cylinder about issues. 
 

-Don

[jetdriven]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:46 PM, hammdo said:

WELL, the intrigue continues!

The cylinder shop (Sal's in Prosper) told us he knew I was using Camguard -- so naturally I asked how he knew.  Per them, stated they've seen more cylinders with issues come in from using Camguard -- when flying alot (like I do). They recommend only using Camguard IF the plane is going to sit for long periods (like avionics, etc).  I told them I fly pretty much weekly - so they suggest I lay off the Camguard (or use half as much) unless the engine will be sitting for long periods.  

So, the exhaust guide is getting replaced and we're doing an IRAN on the cylinder and hope to get it back by the end of the week.

This is the FIRST definitive statement from a shop about the use of Camguard.  So, while the engine looks fantastic, I guess I'll go with no Camguard and see how the oil analysis reports go.  Very interesting they knew without asking me what I was using.  I'll keep changing the oil @ 25 to 30 hours...

-Don

What issues are occurring engines with Camguard that he can tell? I’m just curious. It’s just an anti-corrosion additive.  But as far as actually causing problems, I can’t understand that. Like the last cylinder shop, I went to the guy had a big old pile of cylinders, and he said Lena peak ruins engines, and I said which cylinders did those which engines do those cylinders come off of, and he said 0470’s and O320’s. which are all carbureted and don’t run lean of  peak and I said well that’s a pretty big pile there isn’t it?

I also don’t put a ton of stock in operation advice from people who aren’t operators.

 

[Greg Ellis]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:46 PM, hammdo said:

WELL, the intrigue continues!

The cylinder shop (Sal's in Prosper) told us he knew I was using Camguard --

Sal's is who did my last cylinder.  They are good folks.  I have visited their shop.  No sign, no name to be seen but you know you are in the right place because of the mountain of used and non-serviceable cylinders out in the front yard.  It is a mountain of them.  But they have a really cool place with some classic equipment and a very nice classic Corvette (from the 50's) that I believe Sal has been the only owner of the car.

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

What issues are occurring engines with Camguard that he can tell? I’m just curious. It’s just an anti-corrosion additive.  But as far as actually causing problems, I can’t understand that. Like the last cylinder shop, I went to the guy had a big old pile of cylinders, and he said Lena peak ruins engines, and I said which cylinders did those which engines do those cylinders come off of, and he said 0470’s and O320’s. which are all carbureted and don’t run lean of  peak and I said well that’s a pretty big pile there isn’t it?

I also don’t put a ton of stock in operation advice from people who aren’t operators.

 

Can you explain why you value an operators opinion much more than a shop that sees thousands of these parts? I find that mindset baffling?

Thanks

[jetdriven]

I don’t think that statement was very clear. Certainly I trust the cylinder shop to tell me how to build a cylinder, and  to do the job right, but what I don’t really get is speculation of what caused or did not cause the cylinder to fail especially when it’s something nebulous like some kind of additive or whether or not, he was running rich or lean of peak. Now if the thing was overheated and turned blue, or the cylinder barrel was scuffed completely out of it, I’ll pay attention to that, but I prefer to use data backed up by thousands of pilots who have been operating these planes a certain way and  to operate them the same way they do.  

 

I’ve heard of people saying cam guard or Av blend or whatever is snake oil and it doesn’t work but I never heard anybody say that it actually causes your engine to go bad. 

[Shadrach]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:28 PM, Andy95W said:

So the big question for you and for everybody else is whether or not you’ll keep using Camguard?

I’ve been alternating using AvBlend and Camguard every other oil change, but I’ll likely just change to only AvBlend. When the Aviation Consumer did a test on additives years ago, they found that AvBlend and Camguard had comparable results over straight weight oils and multi-weights.  There has also been some evidence (probably apocryphal) that AvBlend might help with valve sticking.

This post will probably give @jetdriven a conniption fit.   (just kidding Byron)

Could you post a link to that says test. Everything that I’ve read (including the MSDS) suggests that Avblend is mineral oil with blue die.

[hammdo]

99% mineral oil, same as zMax (their other product with no dye color).

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/industry-news/oil-supplements-worth-it-for-many/

-Don

 

[Shadrach]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:46 PM, hammdo said:

WELL, the intrigue continues!

The cylinder shop (Sal's in Prosper) told us he knew I was using Camguard -- so naturally I asked how he knew.  Per them, stated they've seen more cylinders with issues come in from using Camguard -- when flying alot (like I do). They recommend only using Camguard IF the plane is going to sit for long periods (like avionics, etc).  I told them I fly pretty much weekly - so they suggest I lay off the Camguard (or use half as much) unless the engine will be sitting for long periods.  

So, the exhaust guide is getting replaced and we're doing an IRAN on the cylinder and hope to get it back by the end of the week.

This is the FIRST definitive statement from a shop about the use of Camguard.  So, while the engine looks fantastic, I guess I'll go with no Camguard and see how the oil analysis reports go.  Very interesting they knew without asking me what I was using.  I'll keep changing the oil @ 25 to 30 hours...

-Don

Don,

With all due respect, there’s nothing definitive about your cylinder shop’s statement. “More issues from cylinders coming from engines that use camguard”.  I would be skeptical of anyone who made unqualified statements like that. If Camguard is causing these “issues”, then why are your other three cylinders running strong?  Perhaps the other three should be overhauled as a precautionary measure?  The genesis of most old wives tale can be traced to credentialed professionals making foolish statements about subject ancillary to their area of expertise. It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for this one to spread. 
 

In the meantime, if you have any excess Camguard on the shelf consider selling it cheap (i’ll take it off your hands). Statistically speaking, having a bottle in your hangar is probably as detrimental to cylinder health as having a bottle in your engine. You can’t be too careful.

 

[hammdo]

The point for me is I’m flying enough (pretty much weekly). Per the article, may be better to use AvBlend when flying a lot, Camguard when not. 

The engine had run on Exxon Elite (David used it) before and the AeroShell with no additives. The engine looks great and I’m changing the oil often enough. The primary reason I was using Camguard was based on Exxon Elite being used on this engine in the past.

For now, no Camguard since I’ll be breaking in this cylinder. After that,  I’ll probably use AvBlend since I’m flying a lot. If she has to sit a while, I’ll likely pickle the engine. David did this and it came out of hibernation in excellent shape - per oil analysis.

If there is a chance Camguard may be causing this, I’d rather not have to pull a second cylinder. I’ve used Camguard since I’ve had the plane but now I going to keep up with the constant oil changes.

From the article:

‘The trickier question is what to do with a new engine that will fly regularly. Frankly, regular use and frequent oil changes are probably your best insurance. But a supplement could hedge the bet. While its easier for us to wrap our heads around the package approach of CamGuards formula to the single-solution approach of AvBlend, we cant deny the weight of evidence that AvBlend delivers on its claims to a measurable degree. 

In our field interviews, the first thing that popped up was deposit control. “An AvBlend engine sticks out like a sore thumb,” said Dave Allen of Poplar Grove (one of our top-rated engine shops). “I can tell because theyre so clean.” We asked

Allen if he felt there was a higher instance of serviceable parts in these engines.  He felt there was probably less wear, but couldn't say for sure.'

The article I posted shows how engine shops were intrigued AvBlend engines were in such nice shape and clean @ OH time… That is a shops opinion that sees a lot of engines…

BTW, Mike Busch noted if you fly a lot, using a plus oil (Victory/AeroShell 100W+) is fine with no Camguard - in his opinion. 

in QA section (@ 1:17:30):

 

[Echo]

Thoughts on this oil?  Was in engine when purchaded. 

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Don,

With all due respect, there’s nothing definitive about your cylinder shop’s statement. “More issues from cylinders coming from engines that use camguard”.  I would be skeptical of anyone who made unqualified statements like that. If Camguard is causing these “issues”, then why are your other three cylinders running strong?  Perhaps the other three should be overhauled as a precautionary measure?  The genesis of most old wives tale can be traced to credentialed professionals making foolish statements about subject ancillary to their area of expertise. It’ll be interesting to see how long it takes for this one to spread. 
 

In the meantime, if you have any excess Camguard on the shelf consider selling it cheap (i’ll take it off your hands). Statistically speaking, having a bottle in your hangar is probably as detrimental to cylinder health as having a bottle in your engine. You can’t be too careful.

 

Since I owned 2652W for 10 years before Don  and if memory serves me right, #4 always ran the warmest. I am not a fan of Camguard on my own accord and not some wives tail. I tend to believe that maybe there’s an issue with Camguard and excessive heat that the cylinder shops are seeing? Who knows but I would at least listen to what the shop is saying as they’ve seen thousands of cylinders and keep up on the cylinder technology more than any operator. I’ve also spoken with Poplar Grove Airmotive as they’re in my back yard and I trust what they say over anyone else including Mike Busch. You can look at Don’s pictures of that engine and see that he and I have done well in engine management. 
David

[Shadrach]

57 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

Since I owned 2652W for 10 years before Don  and if memory serves me right, #4 always ran the warmest. I am not a fan of Camguard on my own accord and not some wives tail. I tend to believe that maybe there’s an issue with Camguard and excessive heat that the cylinder shops are seeing? Who knows but I would at least listen to what the shop is saying as they’ve seen thousands of cylinders and keep up on the cylinder technology more than any operator. I’ve also spoken with Poplar Grove Airmotive as they’re in my back yard and I trust what they say over anyone else including Mike Busch. You can look at Don’s pictures of that engine and see that he and I have done well in engine management. 
David

Fair enough. However it sure would be nice to have greater detail than “we are seeing issues“. What are these issues? How many engines are running Camgard? We’re clearly also seeing issues with engines that run 100LL.  As far as I can tell no one has really done the homework to really establish a reliable correlation.  I have been running Camgard for nearly 15 years without issue. Is it a panacea against cam failure, I don’t know.  I have no personal interest in policing other people’s lubrication choices.  I am typically very skeptical of additives.  I started using Camgard because the founder and developer (Ed Kollin) made arguments that I consider to be convincing. He basically stated that camgard is the additive package he would’ve created without the constraints of a Corporate R&D department. Perhaps he’s full of it, but he’s at least made an articulate case as a petro chemical engineer and lubrication specialist. Moreover, Aviation consumer’s moisture cabinet test demonstrated significant corrosion protection over a myriad of other oil/ additive packages.  I haven’t seen anyone who is suggesting that Camgard is detrimental take the time to articulate why. Maybe you could take a few minutes to do so or at least point towards someone else who has? I’m all ears if someone has or wants to do so. Until that happens, I will continue to suggest that ascribing failures to a product based on anecdotal correlation without evidence of causation is problematic. 

[Sabremech]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Fair enough. However it sure would be nice to have greater detail than “we are seeing issues“. What are these issues? How many engines are running Camgard? We’re clearly also seeing issues with engines that run 100LL.  As far as I can tell no one has really done the homework to really establish a reliable correlation.  I have been running Camgard for nearly 15 years without issue. Is it a panacea against cam failure, I don’t know.  I have no personal interest in policing other people’s lubrication choices.  I am typically very skeptical of additives.  I started using Camgard because the founder and developer (Ed Kollin) made arguments that I consider to be convincing. He basically stated that camgard is the additive package he would’ve created without the constraints of a Corporate R&D department. Perhaps he’s full of it, but he’s at least made an articulate case as a petro chemical engineer and lubrication specialist. Moreover, Aviation consumer’s moisture cabinet test demonstrated significant corrosion protection over a myriad of other oil/ additive packages.  I haven’t seen anyone who is suggesting that Camgard is detrimental take the time to articulate why. Maybe you could take a few minutes to do so or at least point towards someone else who has? I’m all ears if someone has or wants to do so. Until that happens, I will continue to suggest that ascribing failures to a product based on anecdotal correlation without evidence of causation is problematic. 

What I have never seen is a report from an operator who used Canguard from engine overhaul to engine overhaul be compared against another engine that didn’t use Camguard at all for the same timeframe. That would be real data versus a lawn chair humidity test that didn’t simulate any real world conditions in a Lycoming engine. In conversations I’ve had with an engine overhaul shop, they saw no appreciable difference from running Camguard in relation to wear on a Lycoming engine. 
I would and still would today tell an operator to save that Camguard money at each oil change and put it in a fund to purchase a new camshaft at overhaul. 
If it gives you some comfort or peace of mind, then certainly use it. I’m still waiting on that definitive data today that proves beyond a doubt the marketing claim is true.

David

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Sabremech said:

What I have never seen is a report from an operator who used Canguard from engine overhaul to engine overhaul be compared against another engine that didn’t use Camguard at all for the same timeframe. That would be real data versus a lawn chair humidity test that didn’t simulate any real world conditions in a Lycoming engine. In conversations I’ve had with an engine overhaul shop, they saw no appreciable difference from running Camguard in relation to wear on a Lycoming engine. 
I would and still would today tell an operator to save that Camguard money at each oil change and put it in a fund to purchase a new camshaft at overhaul. 
If it gives you some comfort or peace of mind, then certainly use it. I’m still waiting on that definitive data today that proves beyond a doubt the marketing claim is true.

David

That’s a reasonable position with regard to the efficacy of Camgard’s corrosion inhibiting properties. As someone who’s flying behind a 56 year old cam that’s been in service for 3300 hours, My anecdotal experience suggests that perhaps there is a metallurgy issue with certain manufacturing time frames that affects cam and lifter durability. It’s not like I live in Phoenix and it’s not like this engine didn’t experience long periods of disuse. Nevertheless, with or without Camgard, I have no reason not to expect the cam to remain in service through the next overhaul. 
Whether or not Camgard works is a minor concern compared to whether or not it causes “issues“.  I am interested in someone articulating how it’s causing valve guides to fail or whatever other  “issues” are being found in Camgard engines. 
Some might say that Avblend is snake oil (I would) but saying that it’s taking out cylinders (I wouldn’t) is a “whole nother” thing.

[Sabremech]

10 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That’s a reasonable position with regard to the efficacy of Camgard’s corrosion inhibiting properties. As someone who’s flying behind a 56 year old cam that’s been in service for 3300 hours, My anecdotal experience suggests that perhaps there is a metallurgy issue that affects cam and lifter durability. It’s not like I live in Phoenix and it’s not like this engine didn’t experience long periods of disuse. Nevertheless with or without Camgard, I have no reason not  to expect the cam to remain in service through the next overhaul. 
Whether or not Camgard works is a minor concern compared to whether or not it causes “issues“.  I am interested in someone articulating how it’s causing valve guides to fail or whatever other  “issues” are being found in Camgard engines. 
Some might say that Avblend is snake oil (I would) but saying that it’s taking out cylinders (I wouldn’t) is a “whole nother” thing.

I too will standby to hear what Don reports back from the cylinder shop. Will be interesting to hear why they feel the valve guide failed. 
David

[hammdo]

Shop called. Guide was not cracked - still in spec but a little loose - I’m replacing it. Rings, however, were the issue -  gummed up from what I was told.. I’m picking up the cylinder next week and will get more details. 

All I have for now…

-Don

[T. Peterson]

34 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Shop called. Guide was not cracked - still in spec but a little loose - I’m replacing it. Rings, however, were the issue -  gummed up from what I was told.. I’m picking up the cylinder next week and will get more details. 

All I have for now…

-Don

Hi Don,

I would be very interested in what Don and Paul Maxwell think about you using Camguard. They are both mechanics and operators and have been for a very long time. They also do all my maintenance and have never mentioned Camguard to me one way or another. I never thought to ask about it, and it may be a moot point as my engine is a Continental? I don’t know. I have been told that the Continental cam sits in the oil and Lycoming does not, so that may be why no one has recommended the additive to me.

[Sabremech]

I decided to do some google searches to see if Lycoming or any engine shop for that matter endorses or recommends Camguard. I found none. Will continue to dig for that elusive endorsement.

 

[hammdo]

Aircraft Specialties Service does (they are the ones that did the IRAN on 2652W) but, I believe but they also mix/formulate/bottle it too, so not totally unbiased …

HangaRatz do a lot of engine overhauls too (here in DFW).  FYI…

-Don

[Fly Boomer]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:53 AM, jetdriven said:

I also don’t put a ton of stock in operation advice from people who aren’t operators

Yep.

[hammdo]

Picked up the cylinder today -- Talked to Sal and the shop.  Here is what they are seeing:

Folks who fly often and use Camguard with Non-Lycoming or Plus additive:

A white ash-like color layer is building up on the piston, valves, and rings. This whiteish layer tends to build up over time and closes tolerances to a tighter fit - to the point it begins to sludge up and then they see issues like I've had.

Folks who fly often, use Camguard and use Lycoming (or plus) additive:

Seeing the same issues but appears to build up faster.

So what Sal's recommend:

Use camguard without a plus additive if the plane is going to sit (unless the additive is required).  They suggest after sitting to change the oil and filter again once its flying normally.

Use a plus additive (or one without the additive) and no Camguard if you're really flying a-lot.

Based on what they are seeing, Camguard should be use only if the plane will be sitting a while (like avionics installs, winter time, or periods of disuse).

Just a follow-up for folks interested.

-Don

[hammdo]

Throttle and Prop controls installed!  I have the heim end on both.  Prop version -003 was worn out for sure -- glad that was done.

Cylinder will be installed next Monday and from all appearances, should be in good shape.  I'll break in the cylinder there and then fly locally for a while until I'm sure things are in good shape to go x-country.

Pic of the controls:

 

[Sabremech]

I’ll be interested to see if thousands of operators are seeing the same thing?

 

[hammdo]

I guess One way to find out is take off the valve cover. If you see whiteish-ash like color in the valve cover, may be time to think about it.

-Don