Cirrus Faster than Mooney, on Average

[Danb]

Irish pilot and Philip g, why the hell are you flying lowly Mooney’s since they suck so much 

[irishpilot]

I don't like the added mx costs and the price compared to similarly equipped Mooney's.

I do love my Mooney. This is my second one. However, no plane is perfect. I've flown around 20 different planes and they all have strengths and weaknesses.

Pointing out positive Cirrus traits doesn't lessen my Mooney enjoyment.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that I don't like Cirrus insurance rates compared to Mooney's...

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[bonal]

35 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Who said I was? After two turbo mooneys I moved on. I didn't say they sucked, but the people saying their c is better than a sr22t are just delusional

Not sure if your referring to me but I don't recall anyone comparing a C to a 22t. But most folks on MS do think I'm a bit nuts so easy to draw that conclusion.  Please advise the group of an airplane that can do what a Mooney C or E can and can be had for under 50 to 60 grand for a real nice example. Or for that matter a decent example  that can perform as well as a C for under 40 grand. What's the current market value of a used SR20. 

[steingar]

1.5 AMUs per year just for the damn chute. They can have their Cirrus. Me no care.

[eman1200]

the most important fact is that there are 84 Cirrus airplanes in flight and only 11 Mooneys. 
Sad. 

See post #4.


I can’t imagine how bored I’d have to be to spend time doing this. But good on ya, OP.

[carusoam]

So... the Cirrus with the lowest ground speed....  52kts.   Stall speed of Brand Ci is closer to 60kias...

Is that the one with the parachute out?
Cause that’ll slow you down a bit...

 

Phillip, what are you doing here?
Congrats, I’ve had two Mooneys... and I’m still here.

Some people are missed when they graduate out of their Mooney... they move on to turbines or twins...

Jerry hangs out and shares a bunch of his life long accumulation of avionics knowledge...

Try not to get dragged into the funny statistical analysis...
 

Most of this is a good Saturday ribbing...

No special prizes get awarded for bashing Mooneys on a Mooney specific web site...
 

How many P46Ts are out flying today?

PP thoughts only, I’ve been around here for just a short while.

Best regards,

-a-

[philiplane]

5 hours ago, PJClark said:

Well...I flew an SR20 once, my first flight in 13 years since I sold my M20J in 2005.  It was nice, but I found its performance "uninspiring".  At the time I thought it had a Lycoming IO-360...later discovered it was a Continental IO-360.  4 cyl vs 6 cyl...but stil the performance was not what I remembered from my 201.

Point is:  i think your Cirrus speeds are "book speeds"...my experience is neither will do that.  I supposed you get by with the word "compare"...150-155 knots will "compare" with an M20J...but it sure ain't the same.  I think an Ovation will outrun any NA SR22 by 7-10 knots at all altitudes, and probalby do it on at least 2-3 gph less gas. Turbos?  same, probably a better delta in favor of the M20Ts.

 

The SR20, up until 2016, had the 210 HP IO-360 Continental, chosen for smoothness and efficiency over the 200 HP Lycoming IO-360 that was available when they certified the plane back in 1998.The 2017 and up have the Lycoming IO-390 rated at 215 HP, mostly driven by flight schools, since that is where the bulk of SR20 sales go. 

A Cirrus SR22 has book speeds as high as 184 knots depending on altitude and temperature. It's designed to get 174-178 knots on 17 GPH at 8000 feet. In the few dozen SR22's that I've flown regularly, those speeds are not hard to get, and to beat.The SR22 has the most detailed performance charts ever produced for a piston single. I also find that the turbo version, whether the Tornado Alley, or the Continental version, to meet and exceed their book numbers. At 9000 feet the turbo easily does 190 knots on 17 GPH, and take it up to FL250 for 214 knots on the same 17 GPH LOP. You can get an Acclaim to beat it, but the cylinders have a short life when run at the power settings required to get that 240 knot top speed. 

I've got a lot of time in Mooneys, Cirrus, and other HP singles in addition to a few thousand hours in piston twins, a few hundred in twin turboprops and then there's some Citation time as well. Probably more variety of airplanes flown than the average pilot, due to post-maintenance test flights, rigging flights, avionics check flights, Part 135 charter flights, and the usual instruction flights. Drawing on that experience,  I'm able to find the flaws that rob speed better than most. Rigging and forward CG's are the things that slow most planes down. 

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, philiplane said:

The SR20, up until 2016, had the 210 HP IO-360 Continental, chosen for smoothness and efficiency over the 200 HP Lycoming IO-360 that was available when they certified the plane back in 1998.The 2017 and up have the Lycoming IO-390 rated at 215 HP, mostly driven by flight schools, since that is where the bulk of SR20 sales go. 

 

I wish they kept it that way, though I bet the the 215 hp motor helped them raise MTOW.

[Seth]

I fly both the SR22 and Mooney M20J Missile. 

The cabin in the Cirrus is larger. The gear doesn't tuck up, and it doesn't handfly as well as a Mooney. 

It is the single engine business owner aircraft of choice these days. More and more are flying all the time. It's not a bad airplane. I prefer my Mooney.

As the kids get bigger, and should we have a third, I may rent one for family trips for the three times per year we are all in the Mooney. New Cirrus's have three seatbelts in the back, and with three kids, it can give you a buffer year or two before you have to move up to a six place larger aircraft.

The avionics integration really is amazing.

I still prefer my Mooney. If I were buying today I'd get a Mooney Missile (which I have!!) and then decide if I'm upgrading avionics or not. GPSS is so nice along with an autopilot like the garmin 700.

That said, Cirrus is not faster than Mooney's. We run the fleet of SR22's LOP and tend to true out 162 knots. My Missile will do LOP 172-180 knots. ROP, I"m 192+ The Cirrus ROP is maybe 170.

That's an IO550 comparison.

-Seth

 

 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

the most important fact is that there are 84 Cirrus airplanes in flight and only 11 Mooneys. 
Sad. 

When I checked there was like 80 Mooneys, I think we need a larger sample size.
In general, older planes tend to sit around and are used less based on my unscientific sampling at my local airport.

[philiplane]

12 hours ago, Seth said:

I fly both the SR22 and Mooney M20J Missile. 

That said, Cirrus is not faster than Mooney's. We run the fleet of SR22's LOP and tend to true out 162 knots. My Missile will do LOP 172-180 knots. ROP, I"m 192+ The Cirrus ROP is maybe 170.

That's an IO550 comparison.

-Seth

 

 

 

 

Did you remove the tie downs before flying the Cirrus? Maybe you're dragging the four foot chunk of concrete that's normally buried at the end of the rope? Trying to figure out why your Cirrus are so much slower than ours. The 2011 and the 2014 SR22's I fly easily do 174-177 knots at 75% power LOP.  In the Florida heat and humidity. With four big guys on the way to Marathon for lunch. It's only a little slower than my friend's Ovation, and you can't get four big guys into that plane.

If it's just two people, then a Bravo works for me better than all the aforementioned planes. 

And for more than four people,  I'll take my Aztec. Same 175 knots speed, just on a little more (24 GPH) fuel burn.

Edited June 21, 2020 by philiplane

[carusoam]

Speed chill factor...

When the plane you are in feels faster than it really is...

Really cool when cruising In the 180s Mooney style... feels like 200!

Extra super cool if you fly an Acclaim...

Why would somebody pay the extra AMUs to have a TN’d IO550 to fly around at Ovation speeds..?

Modern day sailors of the FLs love this stuff...

Go Mooney!
 

-a-

[philiplane]

And here is the  SR22TN performance data. Definitely faster than an Ovation, with more useful load too. 

Not sure why Mooney couldn't add 200 lbs to their gross weights to make the planes competitive. It's not impossible. The 2014 SR22 G5 and up have 1100-1200 pound useful loads. I've got a new mission requirement for the next few years, and I would use a Bravo for it, if it had an 1150 pound useful load. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by philiplane

[Niko182]

13 minutes ago, philiplane said:

And here is the  SR22TN performance data. Definitely faster than an Ovation, with more useful load too. 

Not sure why Mooney couldn't add 200 lbs to their gross weights to make the planes competitive. It's not impossible. The 2014 SR22 G5 and up have 1100-1200 pound useful loads. I've got a new mission requirement for the next few years, and I would use a Bravo for it, if it had an 1150 pound useful load. 

The stall speed was at 59 knots at gross. for certification purposes, it needs to stay at or below that for single engine aircraft.

[MooneyMitch]

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Niko182 said:

The stall speed was at 59 knots at gross. for certification purposes, it needs to stay at or below that for single engine aircraft.

I thought it was because the gear are maxed out.  Stall speed you can lower w vgs and or winglets and other devices.

Edited June 21, 2020 by aviatoreb

[philiplane]

Gross weight is limited by the stalling speed more than anything else. It would take a change in flap design, or adding lift devices to maintain the certification stalling speed at an increased weight. You can also establish landing weights that are below takeoff weights. Or, they can provide equivalent levels of safety by adding crashworthiness upgrades like air bags, better seats, etc, to allow the plane to stall a few knots above the original certification and still provide the safety that the 59 knot limit afforded.

Mooney did none of those things, so they sealed the fate of the current models. A four seat airplane realistically limited to one person and bags is hard to sell. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by philiplane

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Gross weight is limited by the stalling speed more than anything else. It would take a change in flap design, or adding lift devices to maintain the certification stalling speed at an increased weight. You can also establish landing weights that are below takeoff weights. Or, they can provide equivalent levels of safety by adding crashworthiness upgrades like air bags, better seats, etc, to allow the plane to stall a few knots above the original certification and still provide the safety that the 59 knot limit afforded.

Mooney did none of those things, so they sealed the fate of the current models. A one person and bags limited four seat airplane is hard to sell. 

 Vgs are cheap and they do lower stall speed noticeably.  Why wouldn’t they do at least that to increase gross?

[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

 Vgs are cheap and they do lower stall speed noticeably.  Why wouldn’t they do at least that to increase gross?

Thats an option. Its what Piper did for the gross weight increase for the M600 meridian.

[gsxrpilot]

I just did this flight today in my 252. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N252AD/history/20200621/1456Z/KBOI/KBJC

640 miles - 3 hours - 31 gal - 13,500 most of the way - and was over 170 TAS just about the whole flight.

I didn't get much of a push at all from a direct cross wind for the duration.

Leaving almost 200 lbs of fuel on the ground helps with the useful load. We still go non-stop with plenty of reserve. But then I'm not flying a minivan. I like my tight handling, sit on the floor, go fast on very little gas, Mooney.

The folks we stayed with in Boise have a 1988 911 Turbo. Very similar to my 1987 252 Turbo.

 

[aviatoreb]

41 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The folks we stayed with in Boise have a 1988 911 Turbo. Very similar to my 1987 252 Turbo.

Except the 911

-can’t fly

-you get a BIG speeding ticket If you try and go 200mph.

[tmo]

On 6/20/2020 at 6:43 PM, aviatoreb said:

...but wait - the Cirrus has a parachute.

Discuss.

Obviously at Cirrus speeds ordinary speed brakes just don't cut it, need a drag chute to slow down.

[Seth]

On 6/21/2020 at 10:21 AM, philiplane said:

Did you remove the tie downs before flying the Cirrus? Maybe you're dragging the four foot chunk of concrete that's normally buried at the end of the rope? Trying to figure out why your Cirrus are so much slower than ours. The 2011 and the 2014 SR22's I fly easily do 174-177 knots at 75% power LOP.  In the Florida heat and humidity. With four big guys on the way to Marathon for lunch. It's only a little slower than my friend's Ovation, and you can't get four big guys into that plane.

If it's just two people, then a Bravo works for me better than all the aforementioned planes. 

And for more than four people,  I'll take my Aztec. Same 175 knots speed, just on a little more (24 GPH) fuel burn.

I've got maybe 10 SR22's in my logbook.  The fastest was obviously the SR22T.

Most true out right around 162. 2500 RPM, WOT, LOP between 5000 and 9000 feet most of the time. Some times a few knots slower, sometimes a few knots faster. Almost all have FIKI and AC.

-Seth

[Seth]

And to be clear, both airplanes are good at their missions. The Mooney is faster or more efficient at the same speed.

The Cirrus has a larger cabin that passengers like more, doesn't gear up, and has a parachute, and really good avionics (even slightly better than new Mooney Avionics).

I personally would still choose a Mooney to fly for me. And if I need slightly more space once in a while, I'll rent the Cirrus.

-Seth

[wcb]

So to be truly fair look at the performance and price of a say a 2006 Ovation 3GX vs say a 2006 SR22.  Both are non turbo.  The Mooney I ran for sampling was N969RP listed on Controller for $249,000 and is very well equipped (recently sold to someone here maybe) vs the Cirrus listed on Controller was N335A currently on controller listed for $289,000.  I tried to get similar engine times etc etc.  and this was just a very quick peak a some planes online.

For $50,000 more to purchase the Cirrus you got a Parachute and less speed (2340tt with 925 on the engine).  Per book... Max cruise 183 kts

For $50,000 less you got dual G1000's (good or bad compared to the dual Avidynes with dual Garmin 430's or does it matter?) and MORE SPEED (1260tt with same on the engine).  Per book Max cruise 197 kts

 

For my money I am still happy with the my Turbo Normalized F  (for now at least...LOL).   I have two fewer cylinders and I do max out at about 160 KTS TAS in cruise.  But, then again I do not have the price tag into my bird that of the two above.