Landing with Speed Brakes?

[jetdriven]

I dont see how anyone would need speedbraked an a non turbocharged Mooney.  A J can descend 1000 FPM and slow from 175 KTS to 100 in about 2 miles or less even with 18" of MP set.

[Bennett]

Not a mater of "needing" to use speedbrakes. They are a great tool, and useful when you want to use them.  As far as not knowing if they are in or out, and forgetting the rumble and difference in feeling, and ignoring just looking out the window, I have an indicator light in my annuciator sub panel that illuminates: "speedbrakes" when they are out.  Since this is the same annunciator sub panel that shows: "Gear Down", it is checked frequently (and yes I do check the light on the floor, and it would be hard to miss the difference in feeling if the gear were not down).  As I said, this is just my way of flying, and I am sure that others have equally valid methods. 

[orangemtl]

Piloto,

Retracting the flaps is an obvious, simple option: thanks for the suggestion. We have frequent crosswinds at my home airport, making it an added convenience.

Fascinating to see the range of habits, considering the theoretical 'uniformity' of correct landing procedures. Almost as if people were...individuals, or something, with different planes and uniquely different requirements....

[Piloto]

Beware that in icing conditions the speed brakes may not retract completely. On Mooneys having the actuating switch on the yoke can lead to accidental speed brakes actuation instead of the PTT during icing conditions. This can worsen your icing situation. On flights of long potential icing I would pull the speed brakes CB to avoid any accidental deployment.

José 

[RJBrown]

Quote

: jetdriven

[DaV8or]

Quote: Piloto

Beware that in icing conditions the speed brakes may not retract completely. On Mooneys having the actuating switch on the yoke can lead to accidental speed brakes actuation instead of the PTT during icing conditions. This can worsen your icing situation. On flights of long potential icing I would pull the speed brakes CB to avoid any accidental deployment.

José 

[DaV8or]

This thread and the one that morphed into the stall/spin debate got me to thinking about the use of speed brakes in the pattern. If most stall/spin accidents happen from base to final like it did with Joel, if you had speed brakes, couldn't you carry a bit more speed in the pattern for a higher margin of safety and then use the brakes on final to get down to the right speed?

[jetdriven]

Dont brakes raise the stall speed a couple knots? I think the best prevention of stalls is pilot awareness and training.

[Piloto]

Quote: DaV8or

This sounds like a personal experience story...

[orangemtl]

Another of many, MANY reasons I enjoy spending most of my flight time in the southwest!

Good to know: I'd like to fly to Alaska eventually, once I put another 100 hours (or 200) on the clock.  Believe I'll just pull that SB circuit breaker beforehand...

[ScubaMan]

Well..... I had a chance to try a few landings with T/O flaps and Speed Brakes out. I flew final approach at about 80 knots with a just a little power and must say they where probably some of the smoothest landings I have made (in a row)...... I did find that it seems to suck up far more runway but touch and go's are much easier since there is no huge trim changes. Thanks for all the advice it was much appreciated.

-Mike

[orangemtl]

I rely on the most objective assessment available: my wife (nonpilot, turbulence-hater) sitting in the right seat. She notes that 'brakes deployed' landings are, overall smoother and largely devoid of bouncing.

We're all capable of convincing ourselves of anything; there is nothing more honest and valuable than the considered critique or well-earned praise from a spouse---at least, when it comes to handling an aircraft. After all: why praise a lousy landing habit---what could possibly be in it for her?

I suspect it differs from model to model: particularly given the yoke-mounted SB switch on the Acclaim and Ovation. For ScubaMan and me, it works; for other models, it may be more trouble than it's worth.

[fantom]

Quote: orangemtl

...given the yoke-mounted SB switch on the Acclaim and Ovation.

[gsengle]

Quote: jetdriven

Dont brakes raise the stall speed a couple knots? I think the best prevention of stalls is pilot awareness and training.

[jetdriven]

Are the brakes approved by Mooney to use during landing?  Prohibited? I think aerodynamically speaking they have to raise thr stall speed somewhat, you are effectivey reducing the area of your wing by a feq sqft with them up. 

[gsengle]

Quote: jetdriven

Are the brakes approved by Mooney to use during landing?  Prohibited? I think aerodynamically speaking they have to raise thr stall speed somewhat, you are effectivey reducing the area of your wing by a feq sqft with them up. 

[Awful_Charlie]

Surprised that no-one has mentioned the failure rate so far.  It seems from the longbody mailist that the later speedbrakes have a fairly high failure rate (as in they deploy but don't retract or fully retract, possibly asymmetrically).  If you get used to landing with them, can you cope when they don't, particularly when they are asymmetric? 

Ben

[carusoam]

Speed brakes approved for all regimes of flight on the M20R.

 

Asymmetrical deployment is a non-event.  Only works 1/2 as well.

 

Lesson learned,  clutch material wears out over time.

 

Failure to deploy, not failure to retract.  Failure to retract is more of an icing issue.

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

[orangemtl]

I don't think the failure rate is a substantial concern; as posted, getting them out there isn't the problem. Strictly for my own use, I don't put them out until I'm over the numbers: retracting the half flaps has been noted as potentially a better method, and I can't dispute the point. It's not so much a method to ENABLE landing (all planes eventually land...); rather, simply a means by which to make it a bit cleaner, minus the 'hop'.

For most people, flap retraction (or, just being a more experienced pilot) is probably a more palatable method.  In a circumstance where you need a relatively rapid descent in final, perhaps the speed brakes would be more useful (e.g. the 'airstrip in a bowl' that we occasionally see here in the western US, and no doubt in Europe as well).

[gsengle]

Quote: orangemtl

I don't think the failure rate is a substantial concern; as posted, getting them out there isn't the problem. Strictly for my own use, I don't put them out until I'm over the numbers: retracting the half flaps has been noted as potentially a better method, and I can't dispute the point. It's not so much a method to ENABLE landing (all planes eventually land...); rather, simply a means by which to make it a bit cleaner, minus the 'hop'.

For most people, flap retraction (or, just being a more experienced pilot) is probably a more palatable method.  In a circumstance where you need a relatively rapid descent in final, perhaps the speed brakes would be more useful (e.g. the 'airstrip in a bowl' that we occasionally see here in the western US, and no doubt in Europe as well).

[orangemtl]

Good question. No; not really.  It costs fuel to gain altitude; I hate the idea, unless I really need to, of wasting the increased airspeed gained from sustained descent.  I will sometimes deploy them to drop from, say 3000 to 2000 when I'm settling into the pattern at home (pattern alt of 1700).  I don't spend much time with them deployed, however.

Fiddled around with flap retraction vs speed brakes over the last few weeks. So long as I'm not dealing with nasty crosswinds or other distracting factors in a landing, I've found that I like to do BOTH: namely, flap retraction and speed brakes just before touchdown.  I wouldn't necessarily do in a circumstance in which I might need to abort and take off again; shedding the maximal amount of lift has made for glass smooth (for me, at least) landings.  Since the flaps are electric and the speed brakes on the yoke, it only requires a brief motion with either hand to achieve both.

[jetdriven]

I wouldnt get into the habit of changing configuration or moving anything but the throttle until at taxi speed.

[jetdriven]

If you slow to 1.1 or 1.15 Vso the airplane will sink so well you won't have issues landing in a bowl. Get this laminar fow wing behind the power curve and the drag adds up terrible quick.  You can use this to your advantage.

Quote: orangemtl

I don't think the failure rate is a substantial concern; as posted, getting them out there isn't the problem. Strictly for my own use, I don't put them out until I'm over the numbers: retracting the half flaps has been noted as potentially a better method, and I can't dispute the point. It's not so much a method to ENABLE landing (all planes eventually land...); rather, simply a means by which to make it a bit cleaner, minus the 'hop'.

For most people, flap retraction (or, just being a more experienced pilot) is probably a more palatable method.  In a circumstance where you need a relatively rapid descent in final, perhaps the speed brakes would be more useful (e.g. the 'airstrip in a bowl' that we occasionally see here in the western US, and no doubt in Europe as well).

[gsengle]

Quote: orangemtl

Good question. No; not really.  It costs fuel to gain altitude; I hate the idea, unless I really need to, of wasting the increased airspeed gained from sustained descent.  I will sometimes deploy them to drop from, say 3000 to 2000 when I'm settling into the pattern at home (pattern alt of 1700).  I don't spend much time with them deployed, however.

Fiddled around with flap retraction vs speed brakes over the last few weeks. So long as I'm not dealing with nasty crosswinds or other distracting factors in a landing, I've found that I like to do BOTH: namely, flap retraction and speed brakes just before touchdown.  I wouldn't necessarily do in a circumstance in which I might need to abort and take off again; shedding the maximal amount of lift has made for glass smooth (for me, at least) landings.  Since the flaps are electric and the speed brakes on the yoke, it only requires a brief motion with either hand to achieve both.

[Verle Cox]

On 9/19/2011 at 4:36 AM, Piloto said:

As a Cfi this sounds absolutely nuts! Maybe u got it to work in your particular airplane but I assure you that’s your airplane particularly. If I did this dumb shit in a kodiak or Cessna caravan or a lear35 it would be disastrous. Not to be rude no disrespect intended but sounds like u are coming in way fast.