Did my first no flap landing

[steingar]

Because I didn’t have any flaps. The hits keep coming. Mrs. Steingar is wondering aloud why I put myself through all this, and I'm starting to agree. Anyhow, I probably should have done lots of these sooner, but I thought “the system is so simple, what’s to break”.  Silly me. Landing wasn’t horrible.

Now I have a conundrum. I’d like my mechanic to handle this at annual, which is coming up next week. But he’s at a a narrow heavily occluded and undulating strip nestled in hilly country.  A bit of a challenge for a Mooney, more so for one bereft of landing flaps.

My plan right now is to get ahead of things tomorrow and take a day off during the week and do some more flaps off landings.  Lots of big strips hereabouts, so no worry at all. If I can get more comfortable with it I should be able to deliver it for annual. Flaps only lower the stall speed about 10 mph, though they do a number on the pitch angle. Airplane definitely felt weird in the flair.

[David_H]

Landing with every possible flap configuration was one of the first things I did (power on, power off, etc...) in the Mooney. There was a substantial difference in the F model. The short bodies may behave different with flaps so I can't comment directly on those since I haven't really tried all those scenarios in a short body.

It's my opinion, everyone should do this... however it's just an opinion.

[Paul_Havelka]

Would he or another mechanic that he would refer you to be willing to sign off on you doing the repair before getting it to him for annual?  I'm fortunate that my mechanic is on the field I am and also allows me to do pretty much all of my own work.

[hammdo]

I’ve flown the F and My B — there is a difference. I was surprised but, I believe the weight and power difference changes thing enough that practice is needed. I had no issues flying the F with no flaps, partial, and full - power on, off and with 25 knot cross winds. The short body B was obviously lighter (by 300 lbs) and I could tell. I think after about 5 more hrs, I’ll have it down in my B...

-Don

[carusoam]

Let’s be smart about the situation...

Bad landings aren’t usually killers....

Be very familiar with the chart of bank angle vs. stall speed...

Keep the bank angle extremely well controlled...

Falling out of the sky before getting to the runway is bad technique... no points will be given out....

Verify the stall horn’s operation... 

Narrow runways won’t make a difference with or without flaps....  length of runway can be more of a challenge...

Practice on the long runway first... and/or at a safe altitude... and/or with a CFI...

a few things that will add to the challenge...

• Stall speed increases
• Landing speed increases
• Roll out after landing increases
• Flaps up has less drag, slowing will take a touch longer...

That being said/typed.... check the recent thread regarding Flap pump maintenance... could be interesting...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bolter]

If you are concerned about landing in a new-to-you configuration at that runway, and that is reasonable, your idea to practice somewhere else makes sense.  After reaching some confidence level and establishing where your performance is relative to POH performance charts, set a clear go-no go criteria for yourself to be mentally prepared for the decision making.  This could include listing these:

• weather conditions (at least 5 knots on the nose and less than 5 knots cross wind?)
• aircraft weight (running less than 50% fuel and no pax?)
• go-around check points (on a target speed for descent? touch down within first 500 feet? )

Tell yourself in advance that a go-around is OK and maybe even plan a few intentional go-arounds before making a real attempt.

Just my $.02 worth...not a CFI and not Anthony

[Ibra]

Good luck with the landings and fixing them, for sure you will need them 

Without flaps speed control on approach and flare is tricky but it is the key, flare with/without always felt same to me just how long it takes to touchdown 

All my night, instrument and crosswinds landings on M20J (usually long runways) are without flaps, I found them much easier without and no flaps is convenient for a high likely go-around (at least life is easier when you fly clean )

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ibra

[gsxrpilot]

When I flew an M20C, I almost never used the flaps for landings or takeoffs. There was on place where I'd go with a 2200x35 ft runway. I'd usually use flaps landing there. But other wise, they're not necessary pretty much anywhere.

By the way, same goes for the 252. 

[steingar]

I always use flaps. Saves wear and tear on the gear.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have to admit, I think I’m mostly being cheap. The shop on site could probably fix it, but they’re going to charge me a fortune. My guy is both good and cheap. 

What gets me is I should be able to do this. His strip is unforgiving, but not overly difficult. About time I learned to do this. 

[bonal]

Practice practice practice besides it's fun. I like to land with flaps set differently on purpose sometimes none sometimes half sometimes full paying close attention to how Snoopy responds. Our field is 3500 feet and never have a problem making the mid field exit 

You can do this

[Conrad]

Well whatever you do, take care... and get yourself some flaps back!

[larryb]

So what is wrong with the flaps?

[MooneyMitch]

I have landed and taken off with/without flaps in different configurations ( don’t takeoff full flaps ever....ask me how I know )...... it’s fun to experiment and learn.  I’ve experimented in the D/C, E, F and my former R model.

I had so much fun today on my final landing, I did a wheelie half way down the runway with full flaps!  

[Shadrach]

@steingar  How long is the runway at the destination airport?

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

@steingar  How long is the runway at the destination airport?

Occluded, but an easy 3k feet. I’m pretty certain I can land it sans flaps, but I want to be dead certain so I don’t want to wind out dead in the real.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Occluded, but an easy 3k feet. I’m pretty certain I can land it sans flaps, but I want to be dead certain so I don’t want to wind out dead in the real.

You'll be fine.

[Andy95W]

41 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You'll be fine.

But definitely practice first.

[DXB]

Very very doable, practice as everyone has noted

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, steingar said:

Occluded, but an easy 3k feet. I’m pretty certain I can land it sans flaps, but I want to be dead certain so I don’t want to wind out dead in the real.

Well within the the margins of the machine. As others have said, verify you’re performing within those margins at a larger familiar strip first (doubtless from reading your previous posts that this advice was needed). I’m sure you’ll do fine. 
 

On another note. You’ve not described the symptoms regarding your flap problem. What the trouble?

[steingar]

The flap handle still pumps, there is force needed, but it springs right back. I didn’t observe any hydraulic fluid on or around the aircraft. I have no idea the malfunction.

 

[M20F-1968]

Look at the recent post including a flap diagram.  It has a troubleshooting section as I recall, or at least there was mention of the condition that the flap pump handle springs back - it has to do with the operation of the flap pump and how fluid is flowing.  I would have to review this myself but I do recall reading something there.

John Breda

[orionflt]

sounds like the return valve isn't completely closed, the cable to the valve could have come loose and not closing , or there could be leakage bypassing the valve. my bet is the cable!

Brian

[N201MKTurbo]

55 minutes ago, steingar said:

The flap handle still pumps, there is force needed, but it springs right back. I didn’t observe any hydraulic fluid on or around the aircraft. I have no idea the malfunction.

 

The inlet check valve isn’t working. When you pump the handle, you are creating a vacuum in the pump cylinder (cavitation). That is why it springs back. The vacuum is pulling the handle back.

This can happen if someone replaced or stretched the spring on the inlet check valve. Remember that it is atmospheric pressure driving the fluid into the cylinder. The pressure on the ball must be less than atmospheric pressure (~15 PSI at sea level) multiplied by the area of the ball (0.012 sq in). About 1 oz of force. This pressure decreases with altitude, so your pump may work at a low elevation airport and not at a higher elevation airport,

[orionflt]

@steingar we should get clarification. 

Does the handle spring back with out moving the flaps, or do the flaps move but come right back up?

if the handle springs, then @N201MKTurbo suggestion is where to look.

Brian

[Ibra]

Not sure how flaps on M20C work? Can they get stuck on landing position? or go asymmetric? if yes then better to have them on clean up position until the aircraft is back near the shop