Formation flying for Mooney Drivers

[Skates97]

17 hours ago, N9201A said:

 

If you don’t know what was in place in 2019, you won’t know what is different from what is in place for 2020.

Every clinic attendee will understand and have to demonstrate implementation of the 2020 procedures. In addition, Operations has continued to refine our programs and policies, and there will doubtless be more learning in 2020.

Finally, attendees at the first 2020 clinic (many of whom were Bonanza, Piper or other non-Mooney pilots) participated in a detailed and interactive dissemination of the 2019 incident. This presentation and discussion is also planned for each regional clinic, as well as sometime in Madison before the flight to Oshkosh.

It’s possible this will also be a forum presentation at Oshkosh. A lot of good learning was had that can be shared.

 

I'm not trying to start a debate, and not trying to denegrate the Caravan, but I don't understand this. Why do you have to know what was there in 2019 to know what changed? Why would someone have to attend one of the clinics to learn what happened and learn from what happened? Why isn't there a write up on the event so that everyone that wants to learn from it can? I've looked through the Caravan site, if it's there it isn't easy to find. 

I'm trying to recall but I don't think I chimed in much in the original discussion. There was much said about waiting, not speculating, and there would be changes coming which would be announced, so I waited. I guess I was hoping for an actual description of what happened, why, what could have been done differently, and what has been changed to keep it from happening again. What I am hearing here still seems very cryptic. 

I try to read about every accident I can, even if it doesn't have to do with the kind of flying I do, I figure I can still probably learn something. The Crash talk forum over on BT is usually pretty good. What I'm hearing here seems a lot like what was being said last year, it sounds like "If you aren't part of us, you don't need to know, and you probably wouldn't understand anyway." 

[carusoam]

I bet there is a top 10 list of traits that are common to formation flyers in the GA world...

When you see all the people that are part of the caravan...

They include a cross section of MSers...

 

Surely there are high performance people that are in the mix... doctors, business owners, pro pilots, military pilots, mechanics, and ordinary GA pilots...

 

Flying has plenty of dangerous aspects...

Formation adds proximity to other hard objects at altitude to the list...

 

If we focus on one accident... we will see THE tree pretty readily.  but, there are so many trees in the forest... all different shapes and different sizes...

Early on... I really wanted to know who did what, how did it happen... and seeing the physical results didn’t really help with the logic...

 

avoiding contact... is key

The list of how to do that is probably quite short.

 

From my one trip into KOSH... as a spectator...

1) Eyes are always outside the cabin...

2) Adjustments are going on all the time as if in the traffic pattern...

3) Some known changes occur on schedule... there are a few coordinated direction changes required for navigation...

4) Maintaining position in 3D space allows for subtle errors in position that occur...

5) If you like to be heads down in the cabin... or can’t stop looking for things on the floor... it doesn’t take long to realize how challenging it is to be close to other planes...

6) With ordinary human interaction, it is important to provide a statement of what happened, what changes are made for prevention... And  go on... The Caravan did so, and quickly...

7) Another thing I became familiar with is the teamwork involved... it really helps to know your team mates... in your flight.. and in your plane...

8) There is not a lot of communication going on.  Similar to sterile cockpit...

9) When Flying a long time in formation... the proximity opens up by a lot... because the cognitive drain is real. Similar to hand flying in IMC...

10) It can be really helpful to have an extra pair of eyes in the cabin to know where everybody is...

11) If you get the opportunity to be an observer...  Take it!

PP thoughts only, not a caravan pilot yet.

Best regards,

-a-

[Skates97]

12 minutes ago, carusoam said:

If we focus on one accident... we will see THE tree pretty readily.  but, there are so many trees in the forest... all different shapes and different sizes...

Early on... I really wanted to know who did what, how did it happen... and seeing the physical results didn’t really help with the logic...

 

avoiding contact... is key

The list of how to do that is probably quite short.

I get all that, and I frankly don't care about the names of who was doing the flying. But why are there detailed reports of different accidents? Why does AOPA put out their accident case study videos? Why ever even have a discussion about an accident that involves something like a stall/spin in the pattern? It seems to me that we could sum up a lot of incidents in short statements of "Don't do this" or "Make sure you always do that."

The 20 minute AOPA video of the accident in Houston where the Cirrus stalled after multiple landing attempts was very informative. At its core it was a stall/spin, but watching the video I learned all kinds of things and multiple times that things could have been done differently to break the accident chain. Yet here we are, at the same discussion there was last year, if you are part of the caravan or the clinics you can find out what happened and what has been done to prevent it, if not, you don't need to know because it obviously doesn't involve you or the type of flying you do.

22 minutes ago, carusoam said:

6) With ordinary human interaction, it is important to provide a statement of what happened, what changes are made for prevention... And  go on... The Caravan did so, and quickly...

Anthony, another great summary from you in the list above from your experience, and as always I enjoy reading what you post. However what you say here in #6, apparently I either missed this completely, or it was not shared with the general public. I have read the statements on the incident on the Caravan website including the after action Ops report, but they are extremely vague when it comes to the incident or changes that were made for prevention. Even what was posted earlier in this thread seems to imply that if you are not part of the caravan or do not attend one of the clinics you are not going to be able to learn from what happened.

[N9201A]

On 3/1/2020 at 3:31 PM, Skates97 said:

I have read the statements on the incident on the Caravan website including the after action Ops report, but they are extremely vague when it comes to the incident or changes that were made for prevention. Even what was posted earlier in this thread seems to imply that if you are not part of the caravan or do not attend one of the clinics you are not going to be able to learn from what happened.

A detailed statement has been posted here on MS and on the Caravan website.  In addition, every clinic attendee will participate in an interactive presentation on Threat and Error Management generally and the 2019 incident specifically.  The interactive presentation will be done at OSH, we have already been invited to do it at several other aviation venues and departments.  If you are interested, just come out and participate!

Formation flying demands discipline and commitment.  The Caravan organization continues to strive to set the standard among GA formation groups, and the takeaways from this experience have enhanced those efforts.

[Hank]

On 3/1/2020 at 5:31 PM, Skates97 said:

However what you say here in #6, apparently I either missed this completely, or it was not shared with the general public.

Yeah, I haven't seen it either, Richard. Just the generalizations and the wait-til-laters from last year.

[Skates97]

53 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yeah, I haven't seen it either, Richard. Just the generalizations and the wait-til-laters from last year.

Paul shared it a couple days ago. 

1 hour ago, N9201A said:

A detailed statement has been posted here on MS and on the Caravan website.  In addition, every clinic attendee will participate in an interactive presentation on Threat and Error Management generally and the 2019 incident specifically.  The interactive presentation will be done at OSH, we have already been invited to do it at several other aviation venues and departments.  If you are interested, just come out and participate!

Formation flying demands discipline and commitment.  The Caravan organization continues to strive to set the standard among GA formation groups, and the takeaways from this experience have enhanced those efforts.

Yes, I saw it right after Paul posted. Glad to see it all written out and makes sense, also glad to read about the changes moving forward. I think the Caravan did well with the write up and posting it. As you and I talked about, I still want to get out and ride along and hopefully do some flying with you, just need to work it into my schedule.