Igor_U Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: I just installed a Surefly and we did remove the SOS. It was super simple. I also have a 201 windshield, but wait for it, there were nut plates on the back of the panel! Oh yeah! Just two simple screws removed on the engine side and the sos popped off. Unfortunately, I found out about the nutplates after I had removed the instrument glareshield and defrost vent tubing so I could get a hand/finger back there to hold the loose nut I assumed would be there. None of that work was needed, but I still got cut hands. Last year I changed out the voltage regulator. That most certainly did not have nut plates. It’s luck of the draw. Good to know and I hope my plane has the same. I can actually see the portion of SOS box when glare-shield is removed but not the fasteners from the inside. Box looks similar to the picture below (except is black) with wires going into terminals. I would need a bore-scope (or inspection mirror) to have another look but seems wires could be just pulled out of the terminals. I don't really see how you could have nutplates unless your SOS box is different. Screws are comming from engine side of the firewall through the flange of the box. One way or the other I'll find that this weekend. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 19 minutes ago, Igor_U said: Good to know and I hope my plane has the same. I can actually see the portion of SOS box when glare-shield is removed but not the fasteners from the inside. Box looks similar to the picture below (except is black) with wires going into terminals. I would need a bore-scope (or inspection mirror) to have another look but seems wires could be just pulled out of the terminals. I don't really see how you could have nutplates unless your SOS box is different. Screws are comming from engine side of the firewall through the flange of the box. One way or the other I'll find that this weekend. Mine looked exactly like that. Maybe nut plates was the wrong term... the nuts were secured to the interior side of the instrument panel and we simply unscrewed the sos and then put the screws back in. We capped off the wires after unhooking them since I didn’t want to mess with the ignition wiring and removing them there. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 26 minutes ago, Igor_U said: Good to know and I hope my plane has the same. I can actually see the portion of SOS box when glare-shield is removed but not the fasteners from the inside. Box looks similar to the picture below (except is black) with wires going into terminals. I would need a bore-scope (or inspection mirror) to have another look but seems wires could be just pulled out of the terminals. I don't really see how you could have nutplates unless your SOS box is different. Screws are comming from engine side of the firewall through the flange of the box. One way or the other I'll find that this weekend. Oh, wait, are you saying your sos is on the interior side of the firewall? Mine was in the engine compartment, on the engine side of the firewall. Yeah, I’d leave that alone if it’s behind your panel. Ugh. Quote
DXB Posted January 3, 2020 Author Report Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said: It seems like it wouldn't matter. If the surefly is firing at 26 degrees and higher than TDC, the other mag will be firing well after the fuel has ignited. It should just be a wasted spark. I think the old fixed timed mag is still contributing to ignition - When I run at settings that should lead to advanced spark on the surefly, the mag check still produces EGT rise on both sides. 1 Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 Just now, DXB said: I think the old fixed timed mag is still contributing to ignition - When I run at settings that should lead to advanced spark on the surefly, the mag check still produces EGT rise on both sides. Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings? Quote
DXB Posted January 3, 2020 Author Report Posted January 3, 2020 Just now, Ragsf15e said: Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings? No way to see dip switch settings with it installed. Shop was instructed to set correctly, and the MP input required for variable timing is definitely there. Also the mag drop is now slightly less on the Surefly side. I’m curious what others see. Quote
takair Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 18 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings? They have a sequence of flashes of an LED light that can be decoded to determine the dip switch settings. The install manual has the decoder. 1 Quote
Brian E. Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 34 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Oh, wait, are you saying your sos is on the interior side of the firewall? Mine was in the engine compartment, on the engine side of the firewall. Yeah, I’d leave that alone if it’s behind your panel. Ugh. In my C the SOS is on the interior side of the firewall. can;t access it without opening up the avionics bay. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Brian E. said: In my C the SOS is on the interior side of the firewall. can;t access it without opening up the avionics bay. I guess I got lucky with that one. Mine was in the engine compartment, attached to the firewall, near the top on the pilots side. Voltage regulator same place, copilot side. Weird how they’re all different. Mine has the 201 windshield so maybe it moved when that went in? Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, takair said: They have a sequence of flashes of an LED light that can be decoded to determine the dip switch settings. The install manual has the decoder. Yeah, I should’ve said it like that. My ia checked the led lights after the install as we followed the installation manual. 1 Quote
takair Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Yeah, I should’ve said it like that. My ia checked the led lights after the install as we followed the installation manual. As a side note, I did have one unit where a DIP switch appears to have been bad. I set the DIPs and the code read back was not correct. I really needed to do it a few times to convince myself of it. That read back is really critical to ensure correct timing, as there is no other indication of the timing. SureFly support was first class. 1 Quote
Igor_U Posted January 3, 2020 Report Posted January 3, 2020 16 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: Oh, wait, are you saying your sos is on the interior side of the firewall? Mine was in the engine compartment, on the engine side of the firewall. Yeah, I’d leave that alone if it’s behind your panel. Ugh. Yes, on the inside! I think there's possibility to access the nuts on the inside through the opening at the glare-shield with right extension and socket. I can certainly see the wires. How do you unhook the wires, just pull? Mine looks like wires are coming from the unit but could be wrong as it's behind some vacuum lines. Sometimes I wonder what engineers were thinking when designing our planes... 1 Quote
jamesm Posted January 4, 2020 Report Posted January 4, 2020 Surefly has a pretty good setup procedure. I just installed one on my 67'c a couple of weeks ago though I haven't much of chance to check it out. The first problem we experienced was as we were turning mag gear to get the LED to out and the LED was rapidly flashing and didn't seem to matter how slow we turned the gear. So when we removed the cap over the manifold pressure port that seem to fixed that problem. Second problem was the Magneto gear installation (as others of mentioned) I had a brand new gear but couldn't timed to the engine as prescribed in the instructions. so we pulled the Surefly and re-installed the magneto gear. If I recall correctly initially the part marking of the mag gear was 6 o'clock position then we moved it to the 8 O'clock position. we had a 50 % percent chance of getting correctly the first time. Just a hindsight comments and observations .. if you watch the Grumman installation video from the web page, they kind gloss over this point in the video IMHO. It has two different power terminals/posts and by terminal I mean the gold color bolt head is the terminal posts one is for "TIMING" and the other is for 'Power". These terminal post have a 6-32 thread in the center shown in "Timing" position in the picture below. So for timing procedure You use the timing terminal once for initial setup then your done. This is the light flashing sequence step to indicate the timing of the dip switch settings (also other have previously mentioned). The other "POWER" terminal post is the power from the battery and has the inline 10 amp slo-blow fuse. the Silver terminal on the side is for the P-Lead. and of course the is fun once you have installed the SIM on the engine. trying to installed the 6-32 screw terminal into the power terminal post can be a bit of challenge . As others mentioned, there really wasn't one part number for the slick Ignition Harness. It is more of if have a model slick mag installed on a M20C here is a lists of part numbers that are suitable substitution for slick magnetos harnesses and there were several. I believe it was Jason from SureFly suggest that I talk to New Horizons who uses Aircraft Ignition services (903 378 7205) as their sales distributor. For the left side slick Ignition harness, I elected to use the New Horizons "Maggie Ignition system" slick cable harness (L2-5AS-II) . This is supposed to be Left side slick ignition harness replacement .The routing made it a little short when compared the harness routing to the Bendix Left side Harness. Since the PMA part I used as is. I paid about ~ $264 from Aircraft Ignition services from Honey Grove, TX. Also elect to use ElectroAir's EA15000 start panel. I am overly paranoid of the starter button exposed with no guard while on the ground. I pulled the Ignition Circuit breaker when not in use in the hangar. While in flight I am overly paranoid of bumping the rocker P-lead switches could lead to a exciting and exhilarating experience. But hey :~) I got rid of reoccurring Bendix switch AD.. Probably was not worth it. Not much of the Mooney original wiring remains. It runs like a singer sewing machine very smooth. So far no complaints though I haven't received the bill from my IA for the annual . I had the Right Bendix Magneto overhauled. since it was approaching the 500 hr inspection. there was intermittent occasional miss. James "67C 3 3 Quote
carusoam Posted January 4, 2020 Report Posted January 4, 2020 Great pirep James, very detailed! Best regards, -a- Quote
ziggy122 Posted January 26, 2020 Report Posted January 26, 2020 Thanks for all the insights so far. So my mags are coming due, and I'm considering the surefly. Couple of noob questions and comments, please correct me where i went wrong and if I missed anything: So the benefits of the surefly are: -less mx/ ~4x longer life -better starting -theoretical ability to lean further -can remove the SOS ...according to spruce, when you replace just one magneto it eliminates the mx and overhaul costs for both mags? How is that possible? ...So assuming my spark plugs and spark plug wires are good, about $1700 in parts (for the surefly and slick harness) + about 11 hrs of labor? Quote
Ragsf15e Posted January 26, 2020 Report Posted January 26, 2020 26 minutes ago, ziggy122 said: Thanks for all the insights so far. So my mags are coming due, and I'm considering the surefly. Couple of noob questions and comments, please correct me where i went wrong and if I missed anything: So the benefits of the surefly are: -less mx/ ~4x longer life -better starting -theoretical ability to lean further -can remove the SOS ...according to spruce, when you replace just one magneto it eliminates the mx and overhaul costs for both mags? How is that possible? ...So assuming my spark plugs and spark plug wires are good, about $1700 in parts (for the surefly and slick harness) + about 11 hrs of labor? 11 hours seems pretty high. It’s a simple mag swap. Hardest part is running the power wire back to the battery if it’s in the tail like mine. The interior is not fun to take out/put back. Mine works well. Breaking in a new cylinder though so not flying it high or lean to see any of those benefits yet. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 26, 2020 Report Posted January 26, 2020 Since the two mags are independent, and you are keeping the original mag... It may be good to re-read where you found the lower maintenance on both mags part... Got a link? Most issues that have been found up to this point were early install related... some parts intended to be re-used were not able to be re-used... Small technical details That shouldn’t be a problem going forwards... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Quote
ziggy122 Posted January 26, 2020 Report Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, carusoam said: Since the two mags are independent, and you are keeping the original mag... It may be good to re-read where you found the lower maintenance on both mags part... Got a link? Most issues that have been found up to this point were early install related... some parts intended to be re-used were not able to be re-used... Small technical details That shouldn’t be a problem going forwards... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- that's what I was thinking. Seems impossible to me that it would reduce the costs on the other mag. ...3rd paragraph from the top under "overview" https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/surefly_08-17074.php I guess it doesn't explicitly say both mags, maybe I read into it too deep. "Replacing just one magneto eliminates magneto maintenance and cuts associated costs in half! Zero maintenance. Zero rebuilds. Zero overhauls. " ....i guess you could say that it eliminates magneto mx on that one mag. seems misleading to me. Edited January 26, 2020 by ziggy122 1 Quote
carusoam Posted January 26, 2020 Report Posted January 26, 2020 Don’t fault the marketing people... they know not what they do... or how long their words last... This has been the message of the day... The Garmin Marketing guys have us looking into tossing out our mag compasses recently... they may actually be right... but it is going to take a few pages of fine print from a technical legal team to detail it for us... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
DXB Posted January 27, 2020 Author Report Posted January 27, 2020 On 1/2/2020 at 9:02 PM, DXB said: I think the old fixed timed mag is still contributing to ignition - When I run at settings that should lead to advanced spark on the surefly, the mag check still produces EGT rise on both sides. On 1/2/2020 at 9:04 PM, Ragsf15e said: Or the shop left it in fixed timing... can you see the dip switch settings? On 1/2/2020 at 9:24 PM, takair said: They have a sequence of flashes of an LED light that can be decoded to determine the dip switch settings. The install manual has the decoder. Finally put this issue to rest - my DIP switches are set correctly for advanced timing for my engine. The green indicator light flash pattern can just be seen with a mirror while reaching through pilot window to turn ignition to left. 3 Quote
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