Davidv Posted December 10, 2019 Report Posted December 10, 2019 I know this has been covered in some other threads, but I'm considering swapping my prop out for an MT 4 blade and wanted to know if there is anyone who has done it recently and has a pirep? Ideally, it would be great to speak with someone who has the prop and is based around the FL/GA area so I could come see it myself... I'm interested in how much it cut down noise/vibration as well as obviously any issues. Thanks, David Quote
carusoam Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 There are quite a few MTs on Mooneys... A couple of four bladers around here as well... Erik has the four blade MT on his Uber Rocket / Pi-Plane and Don has a nice pic of his three blade on his M20K... next to Scott from Kansas’ M20J with a three blade MT... I don’t recall who may have a Bravo with the MT... But I’m sure when they get here, they will have a good pirep to share... Expect Lighter, faster, And lower sound.... make sure to get the right choice of leading edge metal, nickel(?)... and talk about the right paint being used... earlier MTs had the challenge of paint pealing back from the leading edge... All Fuzzy PP memories, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 @FoxMike has an MT on a Bravo. I have his old McCauley prop on my Bravo. 2 Quote
philiplane Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 the best prop that is specifically made for a turbo plane operated in the flight levels would be the Hartzell 3 blade composite. It is designed for the thinner air. there is no speed or climb gain with four blades versus three, but there is a significant loss of glide with the prop windmilling. Four blades are no smoother than three and I find them harder to dynamically balance than three blades. I allow 25 percent more time to balance a 4 blade prop. 1 Quote
Davidv Posted December 11, 2019 Author Report Posted December 11, 2019 6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: @FoxMike has an MT on a Bravo. I have his old McCauley prop on my Bravo. Thanks @LANCECASPER,I sent him a PM. Quote
HXG Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 6 hours ago, philiplane said: the best prop that is specifically made for a turbo plane operated in the flight levels would be the Hartzell 3 blade composite. It is designed for the thinner air. The Hartzell prop is great, but I don’t believe it’s available for the Bravo. I am switching to the 4 blade MT for my Bravo this spring. I believe there will be an improvement in climb performance and a welcome 10 pound weight reduction. Quote
slowflyin Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 Just now, HXG said: The Hartzell prop is great, but I don’t believe it’s available for the Bravo. I am switching to the 4 blade MT for my Bravo this spring. I believe there will be an improvement in climb performance and a welcome 10 pound weight reduction. My understanding as well. Hoping I'm wrong as I like choices. Quote
Davidv Posted December 11, 2019 Author Report Posted December 11, 2019 If Hartzell had their STC ready I would go with that, but doesn’t seem like any news on that front. Anyone hear anything about durability/hairline cracks on the MT? That’s usually what the naysayers point to when you mention switching. Quote
philiplane Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 still plenty of leading edge cracking with the MT. I just did another one last week. 800 TT and had to pull the prop for repair with an overhaul exchange blade. Plus some hub grease leakage. Not what you should expect from a 4 year old prop. And of course, no warranty from MT. Quote
carusoam Posted December 11, 2019 Report Posted December 11, 2019 Looks like the Bravo didn’t make the TopProp list yet...? http://hartzellprop.com/mooney-m20r-m20s-and-m20tn-composite/ Hartzell is pretty easy to contact by both phone and email... worth making a call... Best regards, -a- Quote
FoxMike Posted December 12, 2019 Report Posted December 12, 2019 Davidv I read your message you wrote to me and have been searching for several write-ups that I have done. If you search for the topic MT propellers you might be able to find them. So far i like the propeller. I should mention that I spent more for nickel steel leading edges instead of stainless. Seems like a good decision so far. I have flown it a little over 200 hours including a trip to Alaska this past summer. The original McCauley was OK but I have gotten old enough that the noise and vibration were causing me to shorten legs to 3 hours or less. The MT is quiet and smooth enough I can again do a couple of 4 hour legs/day. Rate of climb is better for a while when you are down at 80-85Kts bt the oil temps get high quick at those speeds so you cannot sustain that more than a few minutes. Cruise is the same. Lower cowl install is different and towing can be a problem at FBOs not familiar with prop blades every 90 degrees. So far the leading edges of the blades show no wear. Paint has not not shed as the earlier blades did. You probably be happy although it is a lot of money. Good luck 2 Quote
Davidv Posted December 12, 2019 Author Report Posted December 12, 2019 13 hours ago, FoxMike said: Davidv I read your message you wrote to me and have been searching for several write-ups that I have done. If you search for the topic MT propellers you might be able to find them. So far i like the propeller. I should mention that I spent more for nickel steel leading edges instead of stainless. Seems like a good decision so far. I have flown it a little over 200 hours including a trip to Alaska this past summer. The original McCauley was OK but I have gotten old enough that the noise and vibration were causing me to shorten legs to 3 hours or less. The MT is quiet and smooth enough I can again do a couple of 4 hour legs/day. Rate of climb is better for a while when you are down at 80-85Kts bt the oil temps get high quick at those speeds so you cannot sustain that more than a few minutes. Cruise is the same. Lower cowl install is different and towing can be a problem at FBOs not familiar with prop blades every 90 degrees. So far the leading edges of the blades show no wear. Paint has not not shed as the earlier blades did. You probably be happy although it is a lot of money. Good luck Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and will look for some of your other write ups. Quote
philiplane Posted December 18, 2019 Report Posted December 18, 2019 On 12/12/2019 at 12:30 PM, Davidv said: Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and will look for some of your other write ups. Call a high volume prop shop, like Aviation Propellers in Opa Locka, and ask them about the durability and repairability of MT props. They will give you a non-sugar coated opinion of what they see every day. Quote
alextstone Posted December 18, 2019 Report Posted December 18, 2019 On 12/11/2019 at 9:50 PM, FoxMike said: The original McCauley was OK but I have gotten old enough that the noise and vibration were causing me to shorten legs to 3 hours or less. Hmnm, this statement makes me wonder how age alone could have any relationship to noise or vibration, assuming that periodic IRAN and dynamic balancing are performed. Engineers / metallurgists of MooneySpace, what's your take??? If you are like me, the justification muscle in my brain will convince me that there is an objective problem to solve when what I am really doing is soothing that other more fun loving part of my brain that says "A four blade prop really looks cool and if it makes my plane fly 2 kts faster, all the better!". Quote
KSMooniac Posted December 18, 2019 Report Posted December 18, 2019 I he meant that as HE aged, he is less tolerant of vibration and noise and needs more frequent breaks. Not that the prop vibrated more with age...The MT is the smoothest prop available for us as far as I know. Wood and composite materials and inherently better at damping vibration than any metal. I know my 4-banger feels like a sewing machine with my MT and careful attention during overhaul to balance and flow-match everything. If I had a 6 cylinder I bet it would be as smooth as a turbine.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 1 Quote
Davidv Posted December 19, 2019 Author Report Posted December 19, 2019 Yes, that's the original reason why I wanted to look into the MT Prop in the first place. I have flown in a more modern Ovation and the difference with just the better sound insulation and top prop was extremely noticeable. Since the top prop isn't available for the Bravo, the MT would be the next best thing (and possibly better except for the durability concerns). Since I like to do 5+ hr trips having a smooth ride will make all the difference in the world for how I feel for 24 hours after I land. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted December 22, 2019 Report Posted December 22, 2019 It might be interesting to see what @donkaye decided to go with for a prop on his Bravo... Something happened to his prop while he was out of town... a while back... His photo gallery may have some pics... Use caution when reviewing the photo galleries... Their can be some pretty attractive instrument panels lying around in there.... Don is a great resource for Mooney pilots... he has gobs of aviation time/experience... and an engineering background... to add some dimension to it all... Best regards, -a- Quote
donkaye Posted December 22, 2019 Report Posted December 22, 2019 3 hours ago, carusoam said: It might be interesting to see what @donkaye decided to go with for a prop on his Bravo... Something happened to his prop while he was out of town... a while back... His photo gallery may have some pics... Use caution when reviewing the photo galleries... Their can be some pretty attractive instrument panels lying around in there.... Don is a great resource for Mooney pilots... he has gobs of aviation time/experience... and an engineering background... to add some dimension to it all... Best regards, -a- I went with the McCauley because there would have been a 6 month delay waiting for the MT 4 blade prop. Also, any repairs if ever necessary would take much longer than with the McCauley. Had a Hartzell prop been available for the Bravo, I would have gone with that, but that is unlikely for the foreseeable future. Regarding my panel: I bought my airplane in August of 1992. I did the upgrade from the KLN 88 to the KLN 90B a couple of years later. Then I went from the KMA 24 mono audio panel to the PMA 7000B stereo a few years later. Oh, yes, I did put in a JPI 700 engine monitor on my second engine. I never had one on the first engine , and it didn't seem to make any difference. That was it until 2013. I thought, as most do even now, that it was a waste of money to do anything else, especially having dual GPSs. Who needed two? I even bypassed the GNS generation of GPSs, since I thought the KLN 90B had some more interesting and useful pages. And the Bendix King EHSI 40 electronic HSI was "King of the Mountain" for many years. It was one of the reasons I bought the Mooney in the first place. At the time Mooney was always ahead of the competition in the avionics field. I had talked about upgrading at some point, but no one really believed me. Then the EHSI 40 went out. Bendix/King from that time until even today idiotically charged absolutely outrageous prices for either repair or replacement. I think they wanted $18,000 for the repair. At the time you could get the G500 for around $13,000. That was it. I was done with BK. I spent several months investigating everything avionics out in the market for the Mooney along with their reliability as reviewed by many, especially those on BeechTalk. From my engineering background I decided that going with one manufacturer was much better than going with many based on the difficulties I knew about interfacing with different ones. There were a bunch of horror stories discussed by many on BeechTalk who had interfacing issues then and even now operating with different companies. Having owned nearly every model of handheld GPS that Garmin had put out at the time, and with their superior support when I had any issues with them, I went the Garmin route. I have to admit that writing that first check for $78,000 and handing it over to the avionics shop with no product in hand and having heard and seen personally of problems a few of my students had when they did it with a smaller amount of money, was difficult. I did not have those problems, and although the job took a lot longer than expected, the end result couldn't have been better. Since that time, any time Garmin came out with a new product that I thought would be useful to me, I bought it. Finally, this year, the last of the Bendix/King products from their Silver Crown series, the KFC 150 was removed in favor of the GFC 500 new age series of autopilots. The KFC 150 served me well for 26 years, but the GFC 500 is currently in a class by itself. While I love teaching in all the models of Mooneys, returning to mine is like coming home every time I fly it. Anxiety of the weather or traffic unknowns, of situational awareness from lack of displays showing runways, taxiways, obstacles and terrain, is a thing of the past, making for much more relaxing flight. Anyone who says money can't buy happiness hasn't flown in my airplane. 3 Quote
alextstone Posted December 23, 2019 Report Posted December 23, 2019 @donkaye, I hear you loud and clear on the single manufacturer...however, it's just too big a leap for many of us to scrap everything at once and start over. I wish there were more good avionics shops out there who could handle the hodgepodge of equipment interfaces and were willing to work on legacy equipment. I guess from their end there are enough people wanting new installs to shrug off the troubleshooting stuff. Quote
philiplane Posted December 23, 2019 Report Posted December 23, 2019 Here we go again. The MT 3 blade prop I had resealed four months ago is leaking again. A not quite four year old prop with less than 500 hours on it. The only trouble-free MT props I've seen so far are the 5 blades I installed on a Cheyenne 400LS. 1 Quote
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