Decisions, decisions

[triple8s]

I'm working on my IFR and my instructor says a C model (engine w/carb) is no good for IFR, he says its an ice maker. I am facing a prop replacement due to the old hub AD issue. The shop says mine is old and they dont recomend rebuilding because I'd have to buy a hub, and all I have are a couple of good blades at best. I have ok radios, a nice A/P and lots of Mods on a C model. She flies nice, is cheap on fuel, and looks good on the ramp, but she is still a 46 year old airplane, just how much money do ya keep puttin in it? I found a bird forsale but its turbocharged, my instructor says there is a learning curve, and I would rather keep my old "C" that to have to rely on him or anyone else to set left seat when I want to go somewhere, " There is a big learning curve" he says. And there is the fuel issue, I dont even think twice about going out and taking an hour ride, but a big Cont is for sure going to cost way more in fuel. So keep the Carb get my IFR then upgrade? or upgrade now and try to get IFR in a much different bird? Just how much different is a Rocket?

 

[231Pilot]

I got my instrument rating in a C and have flown in hard IMC many times in that plane.  If you are concerned about ice (he has to be referring to induction icing), have a carb temperature gauge installed.  Make it part of your scan, and if the temp gets near the danger zone, add carb heat as needed and lean accordingly.  Carb heat works much better proactively than reactively (don't wait for the engine to sputter or stop).

[carusoam]

Thoughts on M20C induction system...

 

There is no alternate air door for an M20C.  Under extreme icing conditions, the air intake can be blocked.  This would leave a minimal amount of air available through the heater muff and not enough to sustain flight.

 

This is a good reason to avoid flight in icing conditions.  It is not really a good reason to avoid IFR training in this aircraft.

 

My opinion only.....

 

-a-

 

[Shadrach]

I agree with both comments above.  As to T'd engines, I think that the learning curve is pretty steep. A few nights of self study and an hour or two in the plane should have you flying. It's really not that hard to read a gauge and take action...or do nothing. Turbo Mooneys have temp limits just like any other Mooney. I suspect that your instructor is making it more complicated than it is.  I know more than a few turbo pilots that endorse and practise a number of unneeded procedures and techniques for ever stage of flight. 

Why do you need/want a turbo? Are you cool with wearing a nose hose? You're not going to see any huge gains until you're into the FLs... 

[rbridges]

get the IFR training finished.  I have a C model and am currently and slowly trying to do my instrument training. 

[1964-M20E]

Well I’m not IFR and only casually working on it i.e. just playing with instrument approaches while visual just to try and get the feel of the approaches and some hood work.

As for icing conditions unless you get caught accidently you probably should not be there.

If you are really worried about induction icing, take the above recommendation above and add a carburetor temp gauge and keep your C model.  You seem to have managed the possibility of induction icing well so far.

 

Unless of course you are fishing for an excuse to get a different plane then pursue the plane of your dreams that your pocketbook will allow.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Your CFI is wrong on many ends.

1) Your Mooney wouldn't be certified for IFR if it couldn't handle flying in the clouds.  Just use carb heat when you are required to.

2) The learning curve of a turbo engine is not difficult.  It requires attention to detail, and attention to gauges.

3) You will spend a lot more maintaining a Rocket than an M20C, unless your M20C is in poor shape

That said, if you can afford to fly the Rocket, than get one.  If you want a regular M20K, then get one.  My favorite bird on the market...

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-ENCORE/1997-MOONEY-M20K-ENCORE/1209359.htm?

[Hank]

I finally completed my Instrument Rating last year in my C-model. It's a great, stable platform for flying, VFR and IFR. I've flown almost 400 hours in her and never had a trace of ice. I do have the "optional carb temp gage" installed, down low on the left side of the panel, and I check it from time to time. Occasionally I will add partial carb heat, but only rarely as the needle is almost always comfortably above the orange "danger zone" stripe.

At the end of my IA checkride, the DE advised me to start working on my Commercial as "you have the perfect plane for it."

Reasonably fast, low fuel burn, stable in flight--what else do you want for flying in the clouds? Yes, the O-360 is an icemaker in some aircraft, but that's all due to cowling & induction. Ours are so tight that everything stays pretty warm. Call it a design feature.

[fantom]

Keep your C, but trade-in your CFII.....

[DaV8or]

I did all my IFR training and most of my IFR flying in carburated airplanes. I did a lot of IFR in the Cessna 182 and it too has a rep for being an ice maker. I think your C would be fine. However, if you are concerned and want to change planes, I have to wonder, why jump all the way to a Rocket? If you are happy enough with your C and the ony thing bothering you is the carb ice issue, the logical jump seems to be to an E. Pretty much the same operating costs, no carb ice and a bit faster. If you're thinking a little extra back seat space would be nice then an F or J would still keep near the same expense to your pocketbook that you're used to.

This board has really gotten turbo fever lately and that's all good, but consider that your C is probably the most economical of all Mooneys (with the exception of Sven's D) to own and operate. I think that in jumping to a big bore turbo, you will see your fixed and variable costs going up significantly. Just check the cost to overhaul the engine alone, then factor the insurance differences. Annual's going to be more too. The firewall forward Rocket specific parts will cost more and you will burn a lot more gas.

[fantom]

Quote: DaV8or

This board has really gotten turbo fever lately and that's all good, but consider that your C is probably the most economical of all Mooneys

[Skywarrior]

If you want a Mooney-savvy CFII, you'll be money ahead by flying to Willmar, MN and engaging Bruce Jaeger. Or fly him down to Tennessee. One day with him will give you a very solid foundation upon which you can build your Instrument skills.

Chuck M. '91 Bravo

[triple8s]

There are only two reasons I would want to trade up; my in-laws live 185nm north of KANJ and the 30 hour drive every year really gets to be a chore, so I have always told myself I was going to make it a 6 hour flight instead of the drive (need IFR rating)and a turbo would get me over a lot of the Great Lakes weather. The other reason is I have almost 50gr in my C and thats probably more or even all I'll ever hope to get out of it. On the other side of the argument, it is paid for, it's cheap, I already have the 406 MHZ elt, S-Tec60-2, less than 300hr TSOH, long range tanks and UGB-16 (carb temp probe). So it isnt a bad little Mooney, I have never seen better MPG out of an airplane. Guess I should never have taken that one ride.

[David Mazer]

I have a Rocket, and it is a great airplane, but I don't think it is the best for training.  It is more expensive to operate, especially when you aren't going anywhere (like during training), it is more complicated to manage than a non-turbo, and its higher speeds require faster responses.  Not the combination one is looking for in training.  Keep the C until you are done and then get the Rocket to go somewhere.

A couple years ago I did a comparison of the variable cost of a Rocket vs an F and found that the actual cost/sm was identical.  That may be different now that gas is more expensive but for travel, the variable cost of the Rocket is pretty good compared to an F and probably your C.  Fixed costs are still going to be higher though and you need to be prepared for that too.

[John Pleisse]

300 hr engine, an Stec60-2 and decent cosmetics.....that's a tough one. When I got my intrument rating, I flew psycho numbers of hours  my first years getting bump around. I got tired of it and then decided I would file only when I knew I could top the wx. With a turbo, this is rarely an issue. I would also beg to differ with your CFI....a carb is not an IFR deal breaker. You can get around at 7-8k msl. Paid off are my two favorite words.

[David Mazer]

Getting above it all in Florida isn't limited by the turbocharger, it is limited by ATC.  They will never give me higher than 9,000 ft when I am flying from one location to another in Florida.  I'm not sure where your flying around TN but you might find the turbo doesn't solve your weather problems the way you think it will.

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Frankly, tripple8s, I wonder if it is not rather the instructor which needs "upgrading" rather than your aircraft. What the guy offers is his opinion to which he's entitled to. I have seen instructors who will flatly refuse to enter IMC in a single. Fine, up to them, so if I want to fly SE IFR then I'll get myself someone who will teach me how to operate MY airplane safely rather than refusing to fly with it in the first place. There are some who claim that IFR is only safe upwards of a Citation.... sure wilbur but then don't instruct on planes you consider "unsafe". In my opinion, what this guy is offering is at best hangar talk. Has he got actual exerience with the carb ice issue? Or does he just blabber on what a friend of a nephiew of an uncle has heard from a distant acquaintance?

Appears to me that you got a very well equipped and capable aircraft, couple of options I'd love to have in my "C" and therefore I guess you'll be more than ok in it. Unless you want to fly "hard" IFR in known ice and all that ugly stuff, when you would need to move to a totally different class of airplane anyhow! Certainly, in a carbureted engine, a carb temp gauge is a very good idea when contemplating taking it into IMC or even if not. I've had one in my old Cessna and never had a problem after, but 2 almost in flight failures before. On the "C" so far the only carb ice I had was actually while on the ground waiting for departure at a busy airport.

so the carb ice issue is one which can and should be addressed with a temp gauge and with making sure you stay on top of it. That is all. Other than that, enjoy your airplane and use the money saved to fly it, rather than thinking of upgrading to something which will cost you significantly more, therefore reducing your flying time and with it your currency and safety.

My opinion only.